Conflicting Ideomotor responses

[David Laing]

Hi all
I had something happen tha other day that I've never encountered before and I'm interested in your views.

I had a client who came to see me regarding smoking cessation. I had done one session with him a week earlier and he had smoked the following day (my first faliure out of over 400 clients!).

I decided to use ideomotor to try to find the problem. I asked the following questions and received the following responses:

Q: Do you really want to stop smoking?
A: NO

Q: Is there a reason why?
A: NO

Q: Do you enjoy smoking?
A: NO

Q: Would your unconcious mind be willing to help you stop ?
A: YES

Q: Would you be willing to stop smoking?
A: NO

Q: Would your unconcious mind be willing to help you stop for your benefit?
A: NO

Q: Would your unconcious mind be willing to help you stop for the sake of your wife and children?
A: NO

etc, etc.

I've never encountered this kind of internal disagreement before!

I'd appreciate your opinions. Is there a better way of acheiving a commitment?

Thanks
Dave

[skip]

David,

Have you ever played deductive reasoning games, or 20 questions?

You know, like the one where a man is found hanged in a room, with a puddle of water on the floor. He is hanging too high to have done it himself, and there is no apparatus by which could have reached high enough to accomplish it, by himself, in the room. You are the detective, is it murder or suicide? You can only ask yes or no questions.

Some people intuit the answer immediately, "He stood on a block of ice."

Others, asking yes or no questions, develop erroneous lines of reasoning, and pursue them relentlessly, framing their questions, with respect to the false line of reasoning and thus tainting the validity of the honest answer.

Try it.

Ideo-motor questions can be like a 20 questions game. If you get off track early you can find yourself getting honest answers, that lead you nowhere productive. For that reason I dont use ideo-motor except as a 'convincer' for the client.

What do you suppose would happen if you suggested that they could speak and still be deeply entranced? You do know that your client is capable of speech, in trance.
People can be in somnambulism, and get up, walk around, carry on a conversation, smoke a cigarette, and even pass for 'awake and aware' while still maintaining the trance state.

Ideomotor signals are kwel to watch, but if I want information, I dont want to be playing guessing games.

skip

[David Laing]

Thanks very much for your reply. I've clearly been trusting Ideomotor too much!
I was really looking for his "secret reason" for continuing to smoke following the first session. When I asked him outright he didn't know the answers. I hoped i might get a more honest answer and commitment using the ideomotor.

Dave

[skip]

David,

If this be the case, then I would consider using 'parts'.

Get agreement that part of him wants to stop, and part doesnt.

Ask to speak to the part that doesnt want to quit. assure 'it' that the reasons it has are just as valid as any other parts. See if you can find an aceptable alternative for satisfying the objectives of the part, that also include stopping smoking. (this usually involves chunking up) (Bandler and Grinders "Six Step Reframing" would be a good model to use here.) Secure an agreement to try the new behavior (which includes non smoking)with the certain knoweledge that if it isnt satisfying the objectives, smoking behavior can always return.

The key ppint is to establish a dialogue and willingness to work to achieve its objectives, but trying different behaviors to do so. This way it doesnt have to abandon its goals, just try a different methodology.

Dont forget to reintegrate the parts when you end the session.

skip

[David Laing]

Thanks Skip
I'll try that!

Cheers!
Dave

[DrTadJames]

David, another thought. I have done a lot of Ideomotor Work, especially in certain circumstances, and it occurred to me to ask...

1. Were you using a pendulum. To me a pendulum is preferable to finger signals.

2. Was the client looking at the pendulum or the finger signals--IE could he see them as he did them? If, not, I have never gotten what I would consider good communication with a client's Unconscious Mind (UM) where the client could not see the response. We say that the pendulum is a bio-FEEDBACK device.

3. SO, if you are using a pendulum and the client sees it, then: The questions you ask are important as to the wording. Remember that each UM is different and often a simple rewording of the question is good to do. For example:

Q: Can you heal that problem?
A: (using pendulum) No.

Q: Can you heal this problem?
A: Yes.

Funny how it works.

I have also noticed that each Hypnotherapist will have different results based on his or her beliefs about the UM and the issue of Ideo Motor Signals. Remember what George Estabrooks (Hypnotism, 1943) and Andre Weitzenhoffer (General Techniques of Hypnotism, 1957) said: A client in hypnosis will not actualize what the Hypnotherapist does not believe to be true.

This means that we all have the potential to limit our clients by our limiting beliefs. SO have your beliefs be unlimited!!!

[Don]

You've gotten some great advice so far, I'd just like to add one thing.

Is it possible that your client does not have good rapport with you? The client seems to be saying that there is a desire to quit but still he will not. Perhaps it is because he does not yet trust you enough to take your word for it?

Is there something you could do to increase your rapport with him?

[EC]

David,

Just one more opinion if you can stand it!

My intent is to encompass what Skip, Tad and Don have said because I agree with all. I agree with Skip in that you need more "agreement" to work on the solution. Don's comment to me, is an expansion of Skip's, in that the agreement needed is inclusive of working with you as well as himself. As far as Tad is concerned, I too have done much work with a pendulum, it's one of my favorite tools and I agree with his findings that it is superior to fingers. So the intent of my post is to agree and add this:

In your ideomotor questioning I did not see that you asked a question that I have found to be critical for many, and, illicits the agreement needed as previously discussed. That question is something like "if we determine a more positive way of expressing.....will it be ok to stop smoking". Or, depending on your therapeutic approach, it might be "if we discover the reason why you smoke, and you understand that you no longer need to smoke, will it be ok to stop".

A number of ways to phrase the question but the intent is to get him to agree to do it and then work that direction until he finds that to be the logical answer.

As Tad has found it necessary that they see the pendulum (I have too), I have found it important to set the stage with agreement to change,,,,,

EC

[David Laing]

Hi Gents
Thanks very much for your terrific feedback!

Tad / EC
I must confess I've never used a pendulum. I've always believed the Ideomotor finger signals to be almost infallible (clearly I was incorrect!) I've rarely done any hypnosis work with client's eyes open. Is this what you are suggesting with this -put in trance then do pendulum or is this done prior to hypnosis?


Don
I think you may well be right about the rapport issue. He is a retired headmaster and I must confess he did have a very stern way about him which stayed throughout. Perhaps I should have taken a bit longer there!

Many thanks again for your time!

Dave

[Jack]

Hello David,

Not much to add except that people in positions of authority: teachers, policemen, managers are often 'fat controllers' (ref: Thomas The Tank Engine) and used to projecting a constructed persona a little more complex and much more consistent than the rest of us. For most of us the face we show the world is just that, we are aware that we are acting, but for fat controllers the act becomes the reality, and may even involve dramatic modifications on a subconscious level.

My suggestion, for what it's worth, is that if you take into account that the client is in roleplay but unaware of it and use that knowledge to find the part responsible for the belief, you may find that it is also the part responsible for the unwanted behaviour. Just a thought.

Jack

[DrTadJames]

David, to answer your question: You can do it either way before or after trance induction. I think that to induce a light trance would be good and then just put the pendulum on the finger (I like a pendulum with a finger clip) and then calibrate it for "yes" or "no".

If you do an arm catalepsy induction, you will get a light trance, anyway. In fact the client looking at the pendulum will induce a nice light to medium trance. Add to this some Ericksonian language and you will have a good trance state suitable for pendulum work.

But I consider all ideomotor work to be bio-feedback so the client should see it -- eyes open. Finger signals can be done with great success with eyes closed because client has kinesthetic feedback. But pendulum will require that client have his eyes open because the kinesthetics are not sufficient.

Finally, pendulum will usually succeed where the finger signals cannot be gotten from a certain client because of lack of trance. I like the pendulum for this reason -- it has a higher success rate. Get a pendulum with a finger clip and have fun...

[Hypnomania]

I did use only some few times finger signals. Then I did do it at the beginning, just asking one question that can be answered with a finger signal and then continued without finger signals. So the client had to talk while being in trance. In your example: "Q: Do you really want to stop smoking?
A: NO" Then I probably would have continued with a question like "why don't you want to stop smoking" and then taking it from this point.

[beaches6]

With my experience in doing hypnosis on clients that want to give up smoking is to reframe from stop smoking to becoming a non smoker.

I am a non smoker. As a non smoker they don't really have to replace it with anything because they are a non smoker

To stop smoking what do you replace it with?

Hope this helps

[Terry (existing)]

With my experience in doing hypnosis on clients that want to give up smoking is to reframe from stop smoking to becoming a non smoker.
I am a non smoker. As a non smoker they don't really have to replace it with anything because they are a non smoker
To stop smoking what do you replace it with?
Hope this helps Interesting viewpoint, with how many have you been successful? I ask because your phrasiology leave something to be desired. "I am a non smoker" is an obvious lie, since they came to you to quit. How many swollow that lie and BECOME non smokers? I ask because it makes no sense, and I dislike that which I don't comprehend.. Perhaps you were careless in what you wrote, in which case I offer the opportunity to correct it.
As for the question, "what do you replace it with, any good practitioner can do that without too much thought, and based on what was discovered during the initial interview.....

Everyone has a photographic memory, some just don't have film.......

[EC]

David,

Just a thought,

You said >> He is a retired headmaster and I must confess he did have a very stern way about him which stayed throughout. <<

And if you associated the "smoking", or cigarette, with one of those "unruly" students he once had, and then have him find a way to" overcome their unruliness,,,,,

Sometimes stern characters just don't want let themselves fail. Why not use it to your (and his) advantage. Kinda boxes him in.

EC

[David Laing]

Hi Terry

That is such an awesome idea! Why the hell didn't I think of that!

brilliant!

Thanks again to all.

Dave

[David Laing]

Sorry EC !
Thanks again!

Dave

[beaches6]

your quote:

"I am a non smoker" is an obvious lie, since they came to you to quit. How many swollow that lie and BECOME non smokers? I ask because it makes no sense, and I dislike that which I don't comprehend.. Perhaps you were careless in what you wrote, in which case I offer the opportunity to correct it.



Yes they come to quit. And leave as a non smoker. I don't think thats a lie.
"You dislike that which you don't comprehend." Maybe other people comprehend.

How would you correct it.

[skip]

Context is everything.

"I am a non smoker"

There is a point where every smoker could be said to have become a non smoker. If they feel this point has been passed ...

You have after all bypassed the critical factor, the unconscious will accept anything if atrfully done.

What is their time reference when this is stated? This is fine if they are oriented in the future, looking back at having gone thru the quitting process whatever that means to them. I always future pace behavioral change, so the new behavior feels like old behavior to them, and is therefore comfortable.

What if you have separated the smoking to be what the cigarette is doing while they are simply the sucker. (this is actually what IS going on, and is an excellent reframe using a phonological ambiguity) In this case they have been habitually mistaken about being a smoker, and have instead been a sucker all those years ...

What if you have changed personal history, such that they never started to smoke. They couldnt now be a smoker, because they never were. All you are doing is rehursing the behavior they will employ when someone mistakenly offers them a cigarette, "No thanks, I am a non smoker."

I could go on and on, and sometimes do.

I never use this. It is simply a non starter for me. They came to me to quit smoking. (Something they intend to do in the future.) We spend our time on what behavior they would prefer to do instead, (Something else they intend to do in the future.) not focus on their past which isnt real any more anyway, and isnt where the action will take place. The rubber meets the road in the next few moments, hours, days, weeks, months, etc. I am not there to solve something in their past, that they already solved with the current behavior, I am there to solve the problem, the current behavior presents now, and in the future, not what it did or didnt do, in the past.

Change doesnt happen to you yesterday.

skip

[beaches6]

I did write it all wrong, I am always in a hurry. What I meant was, yes they do come to quite smoking but going away being a non smoker not I have given up smoking.

Hope that clarifies that. So its not a lie really, is it.

[Unregistered.]

Hi Beaches66,

There is no lie.

At some point in the past, your client was a non-smoker.

You're just instructing them to re-associate that state with this activity.

Hence, they revert to the state of being a non-smoker on your say so.