Sub-Modalities

[Don]

I was just able to pick up a copy of An Insider's Guide to Sub Modalities by Bandler and MacDonald.

I wondered if other people have used it and, if so, whether you found it of value. It was published over 20 years ago and although the sub-modalities are very important, I wonder of the technology has advanced.

[Poodle]

I have it. Submodalities don't change. Isn't it wonderful to know that some things in life "just are". Have not seen it in a good year but I know it's in this house. To me the most interesting part is towards the very end which I hope has not been deleted.

Pood :)

[TTDEEB]

I have it. Submodalities don't change. Isn't it wonderful to know that some things in life "just are". Have not seen it in a good year but I know it's in this house. To me the most interesting part is towards the very end which I hope has not been deleted.

Pood :)

Hi Pood, what do you mean by submodalities don't change? Certainly the effects of changing submodalities depend on the person, right? Some people prefer mental images that move, while others prefer ones that stand still. It probably also depends on what is being represented as well. And even a specific belief a person has can change submodalities over time depending on new experiences, correct? I know sometimes if I recall a mental representation from a long time ago, it may be dimmer than when I first made it - probably because of mental neglect of a particular belief or memory over time. I feel as though submodalities are, if anything, always changing.

Correct me if I'm wrong though. I haven't read the book at question yet.

[skip]

Sub modalities arent SUB.

They are META.

And once you figure that out ...

skip

[Connie]

Hi Pood, what do you mean by submodalities don't change?

I think you've misunderstood Pood's comment. Of course a person's individual submodalites change, that's what we're up to here, after all! I think she meant that what submodalities are doesn't change. There's a finite number of ways to alter a picture, for instance. Focus, color, clarity, brightness, size, and so on...

However, I'm all for inventing new ways to do anything! Extra sensory perceptions and operandi!

[Poodle]

you were going to do that and call the little buggers "MetaModalities" :eek:

Thanks Connie for writing what I intended to write. My brain is a little fuzzy these days. Hopefully will clear up by Jan.

Pood

[TTDEEB]

Right, thanks for the clarification Connie.

I personally find submodalities to be one of the most interesting and effective tools that NLP has to offer. I know the "Swish" pattern was a huge factor in helping me get over a really bad break-up that left me in an almost helpless depressive state. What an awful time that was for me, but hey, I've learned so much because of it now. Funny how the world works that way.

[Poodle]

may come in very handy so one can understand what Skip means when he writes "meta". Did your instructor explain to you what meta means or did you just learn The Meta Model without questioning the words?

Pood ;)

[Soren K (existing)]

Sub modalities arent SUB.

They are META.

And once you figure that out ...

skip

They are sub with respect to ordinary sense modalities

Meta with respect to fully associated states of consciousness

I dislike how Kenrick criticises Richard on the interpretation of submodalities as not meta. I don't think that's ever what Richard meant... by calling them submodalities.

[Poodle]

Would you please rewrite your last post in plain English so I may possibly understand it?

Remember: At the time neither Richard nor John realized what they had.

so we have our senses called "modalities", VAKOG

what is used to describe them are lesser than the whole or is the whole useless without them making them Metamodalities?

Think about it for a couple of years as I have done and you may agree that they are indeed METAmodalities. At the rate Richard changes the rules in NLP, he too may come to this conclusion in the not too distant future. If not, another POV is always useful.

Hugs~ma

[Docresults]

Hello All,

Semantics are important especially to the one meaning a certain meaning when using a particular word.

The concept that Sub-modalities are really meta comes from Neuro-Semantic by Hall And Bodenheimer (sp)

Modalities are the smallest components, aspects or parts we can divide or break an experience down too.

What has been termed sub-modalities or Meta-modalities are the qualities each of the modalities may/may not express.

I suspect the reason they have been starting to identify or label them Meta is one must step back, gain perspective (go meta) to determine the different qualities.

I also suspect it really doesn't matter which process one ascribes to... as long as the one you ascribe get the results you are after fantastic and if we hit a snag are we flexible enough to switch to the other process.

Personally when working with clients I'll break it down to the four elements of Spiritual Technology 1) picture/image 2) body sensation 3) emotion 4) thought and it works well. I don't have to explain that an emotion is a gestalt of a thought and a body sensation I simply find what they want instead discreate both what they haven't wanted and do want by polarity switching the meta modalities of each until both are blank and then they get what they want.

(Often I'll used Matrix Energetics instead as it is faster and yet there are times when the elements/modalities are useful).

To Your Best,
Doc Houston

[Soren K (existing)]

Would you please rewrite your last post in plain English so I may possibly understand it?

Remember: At the time neither Richard nor John realized what they had.

so we have our senses called "modalities", VAKOG

what is used to describe them are lesser than the whole or is the whole useless without them making them Metamodalities?

Think about it for a couple of years as I have done and you may agree that they are indeed METAmodalities. At the rate Richard changes the rules in NLP, he too may come to this conclusion in the not too distant future. If not, another POV is always useful.

Hugs~ma

Hi Ma.

Yeh I agree they are meta. Basically, if you take your present state now, the submodalities impacting on it are meta to that present state. You have to step back ('go meta') from that present state to alter them, and once you alter them if you fully associate back into the state which you have adjusted them to make, then they remain meta to that state. I do not see how it is necessary to call them metamodalities, since it seems fairly obvious that they were taged submodalities to distinguish them from our ordinary sense modalities: sight, hearing, smelling, tasting, feeling. i.e. these are modalities of external sensing and submodalities are the modalities of interior sensing. That, seems to me to be the distinction that Bandler and Grinder were making. However, it so happens that submodalities are in fact significant impactors on the primary state of an individual at any one time i.e. their subjective arrangement just below ordinary consciousness has a powerful influence over the state that an individual is in at any one time. If you detach from that state to adjust the modalities, you go meta to it. Meta is where the modalities are with respect to the present state they influence. So, anyway, that is my understanding of the matter. I learned about it mostly from Kennrick Cleveland's Influential Spinning, seminar CD, where Kenrick criticises Richard for calling them submodalities (but I also have David Hall's Meta-States: Mastering the upper levels of the mind - where I believe it is explored more thoroughly - I've not really got into it too much as I want my core education from Richard).

Here is something I do with this and other info (and please remember I am playing and developing), you can try this trick if you like - next time you feel a way you don't like, reflect upon the submodality information that presented it (here is where any meditation style practice comes into its own), do your thing to adjust and change it (turn bright, stick it out into the distant stars behind you, turn and sound to pitch beyond comprehension, etc.) then bring in a new set of distinctiions that make you feel great, make the adjustments put them in all the right places. When you're happy, then fully associate into your experience. Be in the state they have created. This last bit means, leave the submodality arrangements and reappropriate yourself with your current surroundings - return your attention to whatever your are doing - (Jedi style - go about your business). You can future pace along your timeline if you want to, prior to this last step. If you get inventive with what you want, designing with submodalities and projecting along your timeline so that those states activate when you go into whatever situation, what you are really doing is Desing Human Engineering.

But anyway, I'm still happy to call them submodalities - the way i perceive them is as the modalities that are occuring subconsciously. You might just as well call subconscious the metaconscious if your are going to change submodality to metamodality. They happen just below the surface of ordinary consciousness (sub), but they impact upon (meta) the shifting states of ordinary consciousness.

Hope that makes more sense now what I was on about.

:)

[Soren K (existing)]

Actually, as the day is going on here I'm thinking more about this meta/sub thing.

You may go dowwn, deeper and find a place where you can make changes in the submodality distinctions relative to your needs, and come allthewayup - to continue on your way This seems like going meta while going sub - altering your present state, shifting to one where you can do the work UPON the states you seek to influence. Although, it seems there is something in suggesting them above rather than below (ordinary consciousness), even if going 'all the way dowwn' is a way to play with them.

up-down-above-below-sub-meta

[Henrik]

Sometimes I think it is useful to change submodalities. Sometimes I think it is better to change nothing at all. Just consciously experiencing to the full what was bothering me unconsciously. And then everything changes and I can move on.

Henrik

[Soren K (existing)]

I stood next to the mountain, I wondered if i could take on the task, could I ever do what was great? or would i remain at the lower stages marvelling at the travellers who summited - envious. I doubted my perseverance. I doubted my ability to acquire the skills. I made some success in theory. I got comfy in challenge. In practice I doubted whether I could realy do what it takes. So i sold some old shoes. I looked for a fight. I dreamed i might have it all in an instant. But most of all I longed for some satisfaction. Whichever way I looked, in the ways i went - holding out promise, for a little satisfaction. There was no rest here or there. The slopes were shallow at times winding slowly up the inclines. At other times, much steeper. So so many times, I tumbled down, my head hit the rocks, and my bones ached as the jaggedy bits tore through my clothes. I listened to others about how they might do it. I took advices from those better equiped. I found my ways up paths I thought I'd never manage - one time. And still, despite such circumstances, there is an eternity to the top - extending up beyond the clouds ahead. If I could see where it is I feel sure I would love it - 'if only I could get there', I thought. Perhaps its the mountain itself. Perhaps I will climb down a little. Find another mountain. I went down one, and faced circumstances on the next. The rocks cut at my hands, the altitude made me ill, but the grass looks green up there. I put bandages on my hands, I took time to climatise, a little patience as I progressed. If I keep going I'll surely get there. I arrived at the green grass, but there was nothing to drink. My mouth was dry, I longed to be drinking some purest water from the mountain spring. That there might be something for me to know. How much further? Another mountain. Maybe another mountain. I will climb them together. Their paths are intertwined. I may summit this one before that. And another mountain. Let's get that one involved too. If I can just get there. Maybe then I can feel i did something. Not just one thing though. Many things. But somehow I think I got it all wrong. I will find my way yet. So many paths to choose. A challenge in every step. If I could rest a while here where it's quiet, maybe somehow i'll get closer just by sitting here. I'll listen to the sound of the the brook rushing toward the valley below. The warm sun on my face. But the night fell and it was colder. I became restless and decided to carry on a while. There were perils ahead now. Before i could put up camp there were trecherous rubbleous rocks to the next plateau - more trecherous now the night had near fallen and the mist had rolled in. If only I'd pressed on a little further. I arrived eventually, broken a little, but glad of some rest and comfort. I pressed on the next day. I went too far and took me a week or more to recover. So I had no idea what i was doing now. The extent to which I pushed myself and the wandering between the mountains had disorientated me. So I had no idea what I was doing now. I remembered I was seeking satisfaction in my tasks. To do something satisfying was all i WANT. Yet I wondered if in doing it, it was really satisfying at all! Then I remembered what it was like before when i was disatisfied, and this time I wondered how I ever could have doubted myself - and I climbed three moutains at once, and three more suggested themselves to me.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kGauF7ihJFI&feature=related

[Ruth2]

Thanks, Soren. This really speaks to me.

Ruth2