View Full Version : Subjects being used as Mediums
Expatriot
03-17-2005, 04:15 PM
OK,here we go.
I have an interest in parapsychology, so as far as hypnosis is concerned I've looked into telepathy more than anything. After inducing a deep trance I asked my subject a series of questions, one of them being "Are there beings other than you and I that you can sense in this room?" the answer was yes, and I then asked if my subject would be willing to allow another being to speak through her, she said yes. I spoke with what was considered to be an "angel" and I have a question, is it possible for a subjects subconscious to randomly, without my suggestion, create another personality? Or was this subjects body occupied? There are several things that lead me to believe, despite how hard i find it, that my subject was indeed acting as a medium, I will elaborate more based on your responses.
Please respond soon, I'm very, very intrigued by this.
Expatriot
is it possible for a subjects subconscious to randomly, without my suggestion, create another personality?
Yes. People in hypnosis will try to please the hypnotist and make things up to do so. They will often believe that what they did was not something they made up, but an actual occurance. It's technically known as "confabulation." It's one of the reasons that many districts do not allow hypnosis in court cases, or have very strict rules limiting its use.
Expatriot
03-18-2005, 09:01 AM
Interesting, are there any tests that help differentiate creation from being?
Expatriot
Terry (existing)
03-18-2005, 09:04 AM
Don's reply was valid, and is one viewpoint to which I can ascribe, and therefor I would treat all such information with care. On the other hand, it would be a dissevice to discount everything that happens under hypnosis as the client trying to please the practitioner, this would discount any possibility of any result being valid, or possibly valid..... That is why all experiments should be conducted under controlled circumstances, and what you describe fails that test.... Having done such experiments myself, I recognise the problems that arise in trying to prove anything beyond what we can see, or feel with any of our senses, but it can be done if you give due thought to it. For example, if conducting OOB experiments, how do you know that telepathy is not a factor interfering with the experiment, and seeming to prove it valid, when in fact it is not? I ask because I had to face that problem many years ago, and take such precautions as to eliminate that possibility. On the other hand, what you describe can be a valid therapy tool also, even if it is due the what Don suggests.....
Expatriot
03-18-2005, 09:13 AM
Very interesting, I thank you for your input.
This is the main issue, how to prove it? How to disprove it? Yes, telepathy could indeed be a factor, so really it's very difficult to eliminate all variables, especially the variables we are not fully aware of. This experience has gone a bit beyond this subject, and I do not know if she happens to be a hypnotist and induced trance on me as well :) , but it goes far deeper than I can really accurately describe. I'm not really seeking to confirm if what I think is true, I'd much rather know what is true, being a christian, you could see where logic would be impared a bit.
Much Thanks,
Expatriot
Expatriot
03-18-2005, 02:25 PM
Oh, and something else. I've researched confabulation quite a bit, while it is related to what I am talking about, it is no where near the same. Confabulation occurs when questions are asked to a subject concerning something the subject has no memory of. An instance of confabulation, I assume based on this and what I've read, would be....
Hypnotist: Remeber that time you and Emporer Caesar were sitting there in his temple in Rome and he told that really funny joke? How much did you like that joke?
Subject: YES! That was the funniest joke I've ever heard in my LIFE!
My questions were specific and had nothing to do with past events. I know the subconscious has the ability to lie, but it is not characterized BY lying. If I am trying to bring back some event that damaged the person for life, I could understand why lies would be told, but this is not the case.
Even if this were the case, fine, I'll overlook every single thing that was said, except for the first question I asked. "Do you sense a spiritual being in this room?" just because the subject said yes does not define confabulation, at all.
I'm not trying to come across as arrogant, but understand that trying to disprove something that would seem impossible , like what hypnosis seems like until proven real, hinders any chance of learning.
I look forward to your responses, very much.
Expatriot
Expat, your original question was to whether somebody making something up while under hypnosis could occur. I answered yes to that question.
Terry agreed, but pointed out that merely because it can happen does not mean it necessarily always does happy. Indeed, the early history of psychical research used hypnosis a great deal to put a person into an open state.
The thing is, to be sure that a person is not confabulating requires, IMO, a great deal of study and understanding. For example, your question "do yo usense a spiritual being in this room?" seems quite legittimate and fair. Yet, it is open for confabulation! You hypnotized the person with the intent of trying to make contact with a spiritul being. The person who is hypnotized knows that. There are only two possible answers to your question: no, there's nothing here, in which case the session ends, or yes, there is something here, in which case the person shows that they are "special" (they can communicate) and they keep your interest.
So although your questions seems reasonable and not inclined to result in confabulation, in fact, it encourages it. That is why a great deal of training is needed to prevent confabulation.
BTW, a better question: "Please tell me everything you sense in the room."
Expatriot
03-18-2005, 04:59 PM
Very good, once again, I appreciate this advice much.
I have been a bit vague concerning certain aspects of this entire ordeal. I have asked "What all do you sense in this room?" as well. The answer: 2 Angels, 3 high ranking Demons, 1 familiar. I have left some very specific details out. Since I am not as educated in this particular subject as many of you are, some of my questions have been unintentionally broad, maybe even confusing. The question I am hoping to answer, whether it has been inferred or not, are all of these spiritual matters, angels, demons, santas, etc. a creation of my client's subconcsious mind or not, and how do I go about determining whether all of this is indeed fake?
Expatriot
03-18-2005, 05:05 PM
IMO and experience, that was an answer, once again I find myself not clarifying the question. When the subject was hypnotized (left this out) she was in the dark about what I was going to do, she wanted to know what was wrong and why evil beings continued to harass her. I've reviewed what has happened, and parapsychologically speaking (seems too long to be a word) common sense would dictate some apparition is at work. Hence, hypnosis. So, really I am asking for advice, and input, feeding off of YOUR experiences. That is what this forum is for, is it not?
Expatriot
Terry (existing)
03-18-2005, 06:13 PM
Expatriot, I believe we have responded to your posts with courtesy and based on the knowledge you have offered. On the other hand, you feed us a little information, followed by a question, then a little more followed again by questions. I find this insulting, and choose not to play any more. The payback is not worth the effort.....
Expatriot
03-18-2005, 06:54 PM
Terry, my apologies.
I did not intend on insulting anyone, this is the last thing I wanted to do. Understand, however, that this subject is a bit touchy, and really I was being vague because I did not want to appear insane.
Once again, my sincerest apologies, I hope you accept them.
Expatriot
Merlin
03-18-2005, 08:27 PM
Hello,
If there are beings/entities in the room, then it is *possible* for the hypnotised subject to be aware of them.
It is also *possible* for the mind to fabricate the situation.
Remember, play/fantasy is a part of all of us.
Also, be very careful!
Hypnosis leaves one vulnerable.
Just hypnosis won't lead to posession, but inviting a spirit into the body likely will. If the hypnosis subject follows the wrong suggestions, it would be unfortunate.
Tread carefully!
Especially as you involve others.
Touchy for whom, Expatriot?
You have asked questions and been responded to with courtesy.
Evidently you have failed to update your calibratin of what might happen if you venture forth.
Now I am sure that when you drive you are constantly correcting your course to go, where you want to go, and not off the side of the road.
And I am sure that in conversing with someone you are attracted to, you pay attention to the responses you get, and adjust your preconceptions according to the results you are getting.
Why not try that here?
skip
Expatriot
03-19-2005, 08:49 AM
I thank you all for your advice much. Wisdom has been imparted to me and I accept it, with much gratitude. Once again, I must apologize for those who I may have offended, it was not my intention.
Part of the reason why not much information was disclosed was because there was quite a bit of information. I was in error because I didn't realize what details I should and shouldn't include.
Regardless, thank you all, you've been of great help.
Much Thanks and All the Best,
Expatriot
Very good, once again, I appreciate this advice much.
I have been a bit vague concerning certain aspects of this entire ordeal. I have asked "What all do you sense in this room?" as well. The answer: 2 Angels, 3 high ranking Demons, 1 familiar. I have left some very specific details out. Since I am not as educated in this particular subject as many of you are, some of my questions have been unintentionally broad, maybe even confusing. The question I am hoping to answer, whether it has been inferred or not, are all of these spiritual matters, angels, demons, santas, etc. a creation of my client's subconcsious mind or not, and how do I go about determining whether all of this is indeed fake?
There is another form of confabulation where the person being hypnotized, rather than simply reporting, interprets the experience. Far too often that interpretation is colored by the experience and desires of the medium. If the person says, " 2 Angels, 3 high ranking Demons, 1 familiar," then they are interpreting and confabulating.
I would respectfully suggest that your medium has no way of knowing what they non-physical entities are without communicating with them and checking their responses. You're medium is either guessing or making things up (unless they have had quite a bit of communication with these specific entities previously).
For information on this, I modestly suggest the book Modern Magick which has a long section on communicating with non-physical entities.
IMO and experience, that was an answer, once again I find myself not clarifying the question. When the subject was hypnotized (left this out) she was in the dark about what I was going to do, she wanted to know what was wrong and why evil beings continued to harass her. I've reviewed what has happened, and parapsychologically speaking (seems too long to be a word) common sense would dictate some apparition is at work. Hence, hypnosis. So, really I am asking for advice, and input, feeding off of YOUR experiences. That is what this forum is for, is it not?
Expatriot
Her assumption that they were "evil" is part of her confabulation.
Your assumption that her confabulation was accurate is what is known as "falling into the client's trance." This is an issue that many hypnotherapists drift into when they try to come into their clients' worlds and instead adopt their clients' belief system instead of helping the clients to change their belief system.
Simple Guy
03-19-2005, 09:52 PM
Expatriot,
This "ordeal" is risky for the subject. Stop it. You are not acting mature
and it is reckless.
inandout
08-23-2005, 02:18 PM
Did that person already hold the "belief" that other beings exist?
Kate
Terry (existing)
08-23-2005, 06:29 PM
Did that person already hold the "belief" that other beings exist?
Kate I would say they obviously did since they were able to name the different forms, angel, familiar etc. Only someone studying this area would be so readily able to name them.... The questions were I am afraid, loaded, and the experiment therefor a failure..... One needs to plan with care over a long period, and know something about the volunteer first. Unfortunately I get the impression that our poster did not inform the lady in question that this was his intent, and I therefor feel it was also unethical.....
Merlin
08-23-2005, 07:37 PM
Kate,
>Did that person already hold the "belief" that other beings exist?
Keep in mind that they exist, whether believed in or not.
nadine
09-30-2005, 03:09 PM
Yes, I beleive it is very possible, I work with a lady now, that has seen, and describes the entity that she is seeing.
I know it is hard to believe but if there were no suggestions from your side, about who and that lead her to give you the answers that you want. then that is very possible, I ask my patients to allow their subconsious minds bring the images. and I am quite suprised by what I hear.
If she is really channeling plese don't forget to surround yourself and her with protectiion. Be it with a blue light or a white light, because you might end up hurting her and yourself, even if the being is supposed to be an angel..
Respectfully, Nadine, telling clients to "bring the images" is absolutely making suggestions. Clients will often make up things, even on a subconscious level, to please the hypnotherapist. Sometimes they will blend the factual with the imaginary (confabulation) which may be of use in hypnotherapy, but has questionable objective reality at best.
nadine
10-01-2005, 09:11 AM
Yes but sometimes I had been working on something complety different and they bring in dpearted loved ones.
I have done regressions with clients when we are working on frogivness and they say thy say that know that they had come out of thier bodies and look at the room and then the person they are trying to forgive is right there with them I know it can be thier imaginations, but I hadve attended channeling seesions to see how and what the medium experiences and some of the things that theses patiets bring back in very similar, I don't know if I would have been of the smae opinion few years ago, but now I am becoming a believer. I have spoken with hypnotist that has been doing this for over 20 years and his experiences are similar, What I know is even if it a fragment of the imagination of the patient, as long as it is not doing any harm and the healing process is being done then there is no harm done.
But I have experienced unbelievable things, during these transes and no one in the world is going to tell me diffrently.
Poodle
03-19-2006, 12:57 PM
The original Christian belief was of past lives. If one has passed on to a new life or if Karma is finally finished and gets to stay in heaven, why would that "entity" be in the hypnosis session. There are documented cases of where a spirit is unable to cross over. I'm quite afraid I don't believe in "familiars", nor do I believe in demons. Demons were basically possessed by people with "mental illnesses". They had no idea what mental illness was so the person was possessed by demons. Finally, at long last, we have found out that the mind can disfunction just as the body can and help is readily available whether in the form of western medicine, hypnotherapy or preferably both.
One has to be very careful with words when a client is in trance. Maybe all should take a good read of Sylvia Browne - a hypnotist, past life regression specialist and a psychic. There is also James von Praagh. Very interesting channeling comes from Esther Hicks from Abraham.
Poodle, I would respectfully suggest that there was no "original Christian belief." Rather, there were numerous beliefs held by various churches/sects. Often, leaders of one sect would denounce the beliefs of others. Codification really only developed in the early 4th century c.e., and even then various sects had different beliefs, leading to internecine Christian warfare and the Inquisition.
dArKliGhT
03-20-2006, 02:07 AM
[quote=Poodle] If one has passed on to a new life or if Karma is finally finished and gets to stay in heaven, why would that "entity" be in the hypnosis session.quote]
Isn't that perspective quite limited in such a space, where the possibilities of this mystery are infinite!?
Its been my experience that the mind acts as a radio (for simplicities sake). It both recieves a myriad spectrum of frequencies, and transmits all the same.
Now depending upon what level of reality, this radio (mind) is attuned to (brain frequency, and there respective states)... the content will be different. So to simply limit what one would deem is a credible non-physical entity or not, through linear mathematics and black and white logic... seems sort of immature to me.
In a world where western science (specifically quantum physics) is now mirroring the wisdom of eastern mystic's truth. Why wouldn't an "entity" be in a hypnosis session?
solaris152000
03-20-2006, 05:23 AM
[quote=dArKliGhT
In a world where western science (specifically quantum physics) is now mirroring the wisdom of eastern mystic's truth. Why wouldn't an "entity" be in a hypnosis session?[/quote]
I'm quite familliar with quantum theory, how does it relate to eastern mystics? I'm intrigued.
dArKliGhT
03-21-2006, 04:45 AM
Suprises me that someone who is "quite familiar with quantum theory" knows nothing of the relation to the timeless wisdom of eastern mystics.
Have you never heard of the books "Dancing Wu Li Masters" or "The Holographic Universe" and even more specifically "the Tao of Physics"...?!
I'd suggest checking them out, if you haven't already. Great introduction between the many many parallels of western science (quantum physics) and eastern mysticism.
Very interesting, and a relieving synthesis that is long overdue. ; )
I second the notion, especially "Dancing" and "Holographic".
Poodle
03-26-2006, 08:00 PM
Yes, at that time Christianity was "united" but Gnostics did survive as almost an underground society (buried their texts which were ordered to be destroyed) and archeology has unearthed ancient "Bibles" which do state the past life belief of Christianity as a whole before the unification under Constantine and the Council of Nicea. I believe in Ethopia they are still using the Jubilee Bible which is pre-Constantine and that Bible also contains the old Christian belief of past lives. As for me, myself and I? Dunno! Could be. May be a Gnostic.
Poodle, isn't the fact that there are different versions of pre-Nicean Bibles an indication that there were different beliefs and no unity? In fact, the writings of Paul in the Bibles used today have different sets of corrections being sent to different churches, indicating that lack of unity, no?