using hypnosis to disable verbal attackers

[thnkbg]

Does a woman who has been a victim of a vicious crime like rape assault robbery become a criminal just because she trains herself & become a black belt in some form of martail arts now shes no longer a victim but shes able to defend herself & disable her attacker & he runs away to never attack her again because he knows that shes not a easy target anymore. there are times in life were practicing a higher state of consciousness & walking away is not enough. some times you have to stand up to your attacker or the attacking will never stop like your boss screaming at you, hostile coworkers, manipulative parents, judges who wont listen, etc... these are all situations that you just cant walk away from. you can practice nlp & feel good states of consciousness but doing nothing can cost you. like respect in the eyes of others. now we can lie to ourselves & say that i dont care what anybody thinks about me,but the reality is its very important that you get respect. you dont want a boss to not give you a promotion because he sees that everyone verbally abuses you & he thinks your nuts because your babbling stuff about trance, controlling mental states ,& higher consciousness. if you walk away, to the outside world your perceived as weak fearful scared & a easy victim but there are ways of controlling there states to get a positive outcome for every one. this is the area of nlp im interested in. can anyone help? Thanks for the nlp words of wisdom,I agree being able to manage your own mental states is key to all parts of life. but being able to control the mental states of others is even more powerful. there are times in life you have to skillfully fight back, attackers pray on those who are as they perceived is weak if you dont defend yourself you may be mentally raped ,robbed or whatever if your attacker knows that you are trained in some form of mental combat ,9 out of 10 times he will choose another victim, thats just life.

[Pdrive]

yay for punctuation

[Ursus]

yay for punctuation


I am not sure, what takes longer: to improve punctuation or bad manners.

As far as the topic is concerned, I am absolutely convinced that every human being ought to know at least the ABC of NLP and hypnosis. It should be taught in schools.

[Charlie]

I am absolutely convinced that every human being ought to know at least the ABC of NLP and hypnosis. It should be taught in schools.

I'm inclined to agree.

http://forum.hypnosis.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

[skip]

I am going to assume this was written to me because of my advice to use NLP to control your own states, instead of lashing out at whomever you percieve to be mistreating you.

Since you didnt understand my advice except at a superficial level, lets talk about a much more important deeper level.

If you or the supposed woman takes karate and kicks the **** out of her rapist, because of what her rapist did to her, then she is still being controlled by the rapist. She likely will feel better momentarily, and the rapist got a bit of what they deserved, but then what does she have?

She is still living at effect, she is still reacting, not acting, not at cause in her life. That's a pathetic outcome.

Frist learn how to be at cause. First learn how to live acting, not reacting, then if you want to kick the **** out of someone do so. But not because they caused you to do it, because it was the right thing for you.

Once you are at cause in your life, the right thing for you often changes, and kicking the **** out of pecker woods becomes much less important.

Still your choice, but choice, and not reaction.

capice?

skip

[Terry (existing)]

Since Skip's first post was not properly interpreted, may I add to what he has said to ensure that he is fully understood by any normal person? It is a fact that "How you act, or react, will decide if you become a victim or not"...... When out walking, hold head high, walk with a swing, look and feel confident, and you are much less likely to be the victim of an attack. At work, do your job in a way that makes you confident in your skills, and smile because you know it. How you see yourself with make the difference between being victimised or not. The poster obviously perceived herself as a victim, or perhaps sees a friend as a victim, I'm not sure which, but I do know her attitude is wrong..... You decide on YOUR attitude, not that of others, but your decission will affect them and the way they see you.....

[solaris152000]

Ive gotta say skip, thats a great point. Although IMO it is hard to differenciate between an action, and a reaction.

[Merlin]

>Although IMO it is hard to differenciate between an action, and a reaction.

But, we can learn.

[thnkbg]

Terry, thank god that you interpreted what skip was was trying to say so a normal person can understand. but why are you guys

pretending that we live in a none confrontational, non violent world were people test you every day. you can designed the

greatest states of consciousness in the world for yourself & feel all the amazing confident wonderful feelings in any

situation in life. despite all this there are still manipulative people who will try to attack mentally or physically, even

though your glowing with confidence,assertiveness,holding your head high,walking tall etc. now if i "choose" to respond, not

because there actions affected me or my emotional states its because i choose to respond because again there are situations

that in life you have to deal with. again my question is there anyone who deals with this area of controlling the emotional

states of others through language patterns. now common guys, lets be real with this "perceive" someone is victimizing you

stuff. if someone walks up & slaps you in the face there is no perception needed, you were just assaulted wether you choose

to act from within or react to the outside world. believe me i understand the nlp philosophy which is basically dont let the

external world control how you feel, you design your own feelings or states of consciousness & make the world respond to

you.but the fact is we live in this world with others & we still have to react & respond with others. the key is how

to"skillfully" react & respond to others not from a standpoint of weakness:effect , but strength:cause, &control there states

in the process. police interrogators no this game, hostage negotiators no this game, police who have to talk someone down

from committing suicide,crisis counselers,sales people etc... these are all areas were you have to react & respond to to the

event & get inside these peoples minds, capture &lead the imagination & control there mental states through language patterns

& this is a area of nlp that im interested in.

[Merlin]

>but why are you guys pretending that we live in a none confrontational, non violent world were people test you every day

No, that's not the issue.

>now if i "choose" to respond, not because there actions affected me or my emotional states its because i choose to respond because again there are situations

That's it. Being at 'choice' (at cause)
This is the situation where you respond because you choose to.
Not because you were attacked. Not because you need to respond.
So long as you feel a *need* to respond, *need* overrides *choice* which is not a good thing.

>> there are times in life were practicing a higher state of consciousness & walking away is not enough.

See, this comment "walking away is not enough" indicates you have no choice. The attacker has done whatever and you *must* respond. Therefore the attacker is still controlling you.

>>some times you have to stand up to your attacker
that in life you have to deal with. <emphasis added>

See, you have no choice.

>>but the reality is its very important that you get respect.

again, no choice

>>if you walk away, to the outside world your perceived as weak fearful scared & a easy victim...

So what?

>>you have to skillfully fight back

no choice again

>>if your attacker knows that you are trained in some form of mental combat ,9 out of 10 times he will choose another victim

You gonna get a tattoo on your forehead warning would-be attackers?
How else would she know?

I'm a victim
I have no control
I have no choice
I must attack back

> & we still have to react

>the key is how to"skillfully" react

>not from a standpoint of weakness:effect , but strength

>have to react & respond to to the event

Your post says all over that you have no choice, you MUST react.

[Don]

I studied martial arts many years ago. One of the things I learned is that the goal of learning martial arts was to never have to use them. Once you got in a fight you had lost...

Oh, you may win the fight, but because you had to fight you had lost.

I don't think any person becomes a criminal by learning martial arts. I support all people learning these arts, both physical ones and verbal ones.

But I also agree with Skip. If a person learns a skill to inflict a punishment on someone who has hurt them, they will quickly find that they still have anger and rage even if they kick the crap out of a person who harmed them. The concept that revenge resolves personal pains and brings "closure" is, in my opinion, a total myth.

The real secret of martial arts is not that you can be the master of anyone else, but that you can be the master of yourself. If you're feeling anger and rage, the person who attacked you has still won.

It's very hard to defend yourself when the real person you're fighting is...


yourself.

[skip]

thnkbg,

Have you ever considered reading what you write, and asking yourself if this person holds a victim mentality?

People who carry the victim mentality have no personal power, they have given it all up to, the evil world, the bullies, those who are out to get them ...

They live at effect, not at cause. They react, they have no choice except sometimes in how they will run, towards the 'enemy', or away.

Running towards the 'enemy', as in learning martial arts, because they are afraid, and then opening a can of whop-ass on them, is still being controlled by your enemy, and your fear. From the inside, it is every bit as lame as running away.

When you decide, and learn to live at cause, what the bullies think, what the rest of the world thinks is irrelevent. What they will, as a result, think is something else, but it will essentially be irrelevent to you, because you will be the one with power and they will mostly be responding to you. And what they DO will change as a result.

You seem to think that by advocating you chose to have personal power I am ignoring reality. I am telling you that reality will change if you do. Something you continue to insist on failing to see.

AND I realise that you will continue to argue for your helplessness, and to keep your fear, and to hope that others will comiserate with your victimhood. Perhaps you could form a support group, and sit around and try and outdo each other, with stories of how helpless, and put upon, you are. That would certainly reinforce the hallucination wouldnt it?

Or not.

Ill sum it up for you, "thnkbg doesnt."

skip

[solaris152000]

What if some-one had you conered and was heavilly laying into you, then I think there would be very little choice but to fight back no?

[skip]

You mean you just 'woke up', in a corner, with someone laying into you?

What crap.

Why would you go into that corner in the first place?

If you did want to go into a corner, why would you take this person, who wants to lay into you, with you?

You werent intending to corner them, you were running scared, werent you?

If you think back it is every choice you made, or more correctly responded to, that placed you in the corner. When you are looking back, at what you are afraid of, you cant see that you are running into a corner. So you end up in lots of them, with unsavory characters no doubt. :)

If you were looking ahead, you would be unlikely to chose a "corner".

Its the thinkin that's stinkin solaris.

Well thnkbg, sounds like you have a new member in your support group.

skip

[solaris152000]

No I completely agree with your points skip, Im just saying that say if you were just walking down a street, and someone out of no where just pushed you into an alley and started beating the crap outta you. You'd have to choose to fight back then. Or choose to get beaten up.

[skip]

roflmao

Just cant get out of that rut can you?

What makes you assume that either beating the guy up, or getting getting beaten up, are the only two possibilities in this situation?

I can pull damn near anything out of the same "no where" you got the guy from.

But more importantly what are the choices I would have had to have made that put me in that situation?

Take responsibility, whether it is really yours, or mere circumstance. Any other path is to forgo your power and put yourself in victimhood.

The most emasculating thing you can think is, "There was nothing I could have done."

[thnkbg]

What makes you assume that either beating the guy up, or getting beaten up, are the only two possibilities in this situation? Hay skip this is exactly what i have been trying to find out but i cant seem to get a direct answer. ill directly ask you than. how would you use nlp or hypnosis to get yourself out of this situation that you never "choose" to be in,in the first place. what are my other specific "possibilities" other than being beatin up or beating the guy up. once im in that situation not by my choosing. please dont change the subject & ask me what was i doing there in the first place. in case you didnt know skip , negative bad things happen to innocent people who dont feel like victims, all the time all over planet. if you dont believe me just put down your nlp book for one sec. & turn on the news. im not living my life in fear,im not living my life as victim, im not living my life in effect. im skillfully empowering myself through education so i can have more options, more choices,have better possibilites in beating the guy up or not beating the guy up or what ever. also im designing a better cause in my life. if im hiking through a trail & i get bit by a rattle snake, "not my choice" "i know, what was i doing on the trail in the first place". my point is if i educate myself about snakes, learn how to handle snakes,learn how what causes a snake to bite in the first place i can design a better cause for my self, now i have other choices than getting bit again. has nothing to do with fear or being a victim even though i know it sounds good if you want to throw someone a zinger.

[Merlin]

>in case you didnt know skip , negative bad things happen to innocent people who dont feel like victims, all the time all over planet.

But your posting was full of "I'M A HELPLESS VICTIM!"

Skip said: >She is still living at effect, she is still reacting, not acting, not at cause in her life. That's a pathetic outcome.

Which is priceless info.
Whether you're willing to see it or not.

>im not living my life in fear,im not living my life as victim

but that's not what you've been posting.
All we have is what you post.

Anyway, if it were me.
I'd just superglue his feet to the ground, douse him with gasoline, and toss a match his way.

Hypnosis can be so much fun :)

[Tudor]

Thnkbg

In a situation were you get confronted by an c/would-be-attacker there is:
Before During and After.

Before:

You have several different choices, all of them depending on you know-how to the situation you are about to enter. Low level of knowledge seem to be the basic answer to why tourist being robed (victims), in for example Nairobi. When I asked how come they were walking around at night at River Road ( I was there as a tourist myself). The answer was simply, I didn’t know it was a bad area. If it’s Nairobi or Stockholm or Helsinki or… The standard answer is still the same. I didn’t know! or I thought it was safe…!

In a safe and friendly environment there is still a possibility that you can be confronted by the wrong person. But he has to pick you out. And that’s where the acting comes in place. If you act confident (“… hold head high, walk with a swing, look and feel confident” Terry(existing)) , it’s likely that your c/would-be-attacker choose another person whom looks to him more of a victim (hopefully there is non at all).

But of course you can put yourself in a situation were you will be confronted. I worked for several years as a bouncer and was confronted several times a night and luckily very few of them resulted in fighting. And the simple answer to why there were so few fights is: I had the knowledge how to communicate for a purpose, that was to eliminate tensions and disarm the anger and frustration of a person who was not allowed to enter.

Knowledge, communicating and confidence (pretended or real) will help you not to be a victim.

During:

So you got slapped on the face. The best way to get slapped again is to react by trying to hit back. The moment before you react, there is a moment were you have the time to act instead. And a good way of acting is to defend yourself, either by using word or if you are skilled at martial arts block the next punch (for defending yourself) and then communicate.

After:

You have a red cheek and there is nothing you can do to undo that. So, the reaction is either for revenge or seek punishment – or the action to be pleased that you handled the situation the way you intended to by acting from multiple choices and that resulted only in a bruised face. To react and try to revenge leads to escalated violence and when you are bruised and your attacker is bruised you have gained nothing. You are still bruised and the event actually did occur. You are still a victim in the attackers eyes – he picked you out and if he is an important person in your life, then you will consider yourself as his victim. Because he still think that you are a victim (that’s your belief) and apparently he’s important, otherwise you would not let him influence you to seek out for him to be punished.

A person whom attacks for no apparent reason other then he’s own, has only the importance in your life that you give him afterwards. He’s only the creator of a bruised face.

If you try to punish him, it’s only because you would like him to change his mind about you – that you are not a victim.

But you are a victim - in a Court of Law, but it’s only by definition. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=victim

<LI class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 36.0pt">One who is harmed or killed by another: a victim of a mugging.
A living creature slain and offered as a sacrifice during a religious rite. <LI class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 36.0pt">One who is harmed by or made to suffer from an act, circumstance, agency, or condition: victims of war.
A person who suffers injury, loss, or death as a result of a voluntary undertaking: You are a victim of your own scheming. <LI class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; mso-margin-top-alt: auto; mso-margin-bottom-alt: auto; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list 36.0pt">A person who is tricked, swindled, or taken advantage of: the victim of a cruel hoax.Peter

[solaris152000]

Is it not more satisfying to hit them with a dustbinlid and stamp on their head, than to just talk them out of violence.

Or is that just me :eek:

[Tudor]

Solaris152000
It's just you and the rest of the population in the Middle East.
Peter

[Tudor]

Comment to my own post
It's not my intent to insinuate that you are something that you are not and It's not my intention to imply that the people that live in the Middle East are more prone to violence then others.

Peter

[skip]

yea, not at all like British club soccer fans, right?

[skip]

I havent assumed anything.

Everything you have said, comes from a REACTION, frame.

There isnt one shred of proactive, at cause, inference in any of your posts.

It is all, "Here is the situation I helplessly find myself in, and someone please imagine me a way out." or "Im taking xxxx lessons to get back at those who are out to get me, both in the past, and in the future, and I am deluding myself into thinking that it is proactive."

"It was on fire when I laid down on it."

So you have to be wondering why I am still engaged in this, dont you?

Now respond to this.

skip

[Terry (existing)]

OK the original question was about learning martial arts to defend oneself against attackers. I suppose the thread connection offered was that this is a better aproach that using NLP or some other form of mentalism as a defence, but we have wandered far from this, so I would like to bring everyone back to that original if I may.....Many years ago, perhaps before some of our readers were born, a woman was murdered in Birmingham City Centre, in a chuchyard oposite one of the two railway stations......A busy part of the city at any time of the day or night. It seems that this woman was a rather large and athletic woman, skilled to black belt standard in some martial art, I am not sure now which one. When her killer was finally caught, he was rather a small man, and nobody could understand how he was able to overpower his victim. Fact is under those circumstances it is certain that she froze, and was unable to use her skills effectively, so she was killed despite her martial arts training. More recently, when we had a spate of killings in Calgary, our police force encouraged women to take self defence training in the form of a "Lady beware" program. This also is doomed to failure I imagine, because when you are attacked on a lonely road on a dark night, it is likely that you will freeze and be unable to defend yourself, so NO, self defence alone is NOT going to be effective, take my word of it........On the other hand, it we tandem this training with training in mental reaction to such an assault, there will be no freezing, and the woman will react as she should without thought.... Now you youngsters can scream all you want, but I know what is fact in this matter because I have seen it so often, and if you stop to think about it instead of reacting without thought, you too will realise that we are all a combination of mind and body, and both must work in order to get best results. Ladies, you don't need martial arts to defend yourself, but it is nice in that it gives one a better self image. Just the same, take training in other techniques as well so that you won't freeze when a situation arises were you need you skills to function........Remember, the minute you need to use martial arts skills, you have failed.......

[j0hnny#]

It seems that this woman was a rather large and athletic woman, skilled to black belt standard in some martial art, I am not sure now which one. When her killer was finally caught, he was rather a small man, and nobody could understand how he was able to overpower his victim. Fact is under those circumstances it is certain that she froze, and was unable to use her skills effectively, so she was killed despite her martial arts training.

Yeah, I doubt you get to that level and not know how to engage in combat. Seems a likely story... Maybe she was balck belt in origami..... ?

[thnkbg]

Hay skip i love you man, thanks for taking the time for sharing your knowlege with all of us. the only way you can design a better cause for yourself is through education the more education you have in all aspects in life negative or positive the more choices you can make & the more proactive you can be. when you said,"What makes you assume that either beating the guy up, or getting beaten up, are the only two possibilities in this situation?" i was hoping to get a direct answer in what my other nlp possibilities were, but if you want to completely ignore my direct question & go off with personal attacks thats fine to. i still got nothin but love for you man. oh & by the way, that love is me proactively being at cause & not effect.:)

[skip]

thnkbg,

I love you too, but dont break your arm patting yourself on your back, you are still missing the point, and now you have added me to the list, of those persecuiting you.

Does anyone see a pattern here?

In reference to your "direct question" how about paying attention to my 'direct response'? When you are at cause the whole freaking reality changes. Your question becomes irrelevent.

Now Ill agreee you havent percieved it yet, but your lack of perception doesnt mean your question hasnt been directly addressed by every person who has responded to you in this.

warmly,

skip

[thnkbg]

skip i get your point crystal clear,but the fact that you keep using smoke & mirrors to avoid my question, leads me to believe you really dont know the answer do you. you can design your own reality all you want an you are still not immune to lifes trials & tribulations , just ask the victims at the world trade center,are the solidiers in iraq,or Nicole Simpson, or Rodney King,or all the children who were molested by catholic priest.... im sure there questions would be very relevant skip.My supervisor last night was walking downtown & got attacked by a homeless person with a knife.it was not by his design or choice.he got cut pretty bad all over his hands. but the only way he was able to survive was to fightback or he would have been killed. you said in your post theres other magical possibilities than being beatin up or beatin the guy up but for some mysterious reason you cant tell me the "specific possibilities".i really would love to know skip. you wont tell me,you cant tell me, because you dont know. do you. so you give me theses smoke & mirror answers like some little green star wars character:believe in the force luke. i strongly suspect if that was you being attacked by a homeless man with a knife skip,not by your choice or design, you would come from behind that nlp wall that your hiding behind & react to save your life & your love ones life real fast.just like anyone else. i see that you like to ignore this part of reality & its all my fault , im living in effect etc..

if your going to design your life skip & live in cause, you have to design every thing.good & bad,positve & negative you cant ignore the negative & pretend it doesnt exist & say its all that persons fault because hes living in effect. you by insurance for your car not beacause you feel like a victim, not because you fear the unknown, not because you plan to get into a accident. we know that somthings in life happen that our out of our control so we design or life in a way to handle these situations if we need to. warmly,thnkbg

[Terry (existing)]

Johnny, ...
... it may be that you doubt my word... I would [not] waste time lying to you.

[j0hnny#]

Aw, come on Don , don't delete the flames man - I didn't get that one in an email unfortunately..... Terry, if you want to insult me - send me a private message. But sorry I upset you there little fella...

Yeah, froze eh...? how could that be a fact of the matter - who would know it? seems like speculation at best - and if it is true - whoever gave her the degree let her down big time IMO.

combination of mind and body, and both must work in order to get best results

if they ain't teaching that to get a black belt it's not a martial art. Maybe she wore a black belt to self defence classes?

No one is saying you are lying Tel just it doesn't sound like a convincing story to me. I'm sure you tell it lhow you see it.

Nice moral to the story, though

But hey T how does it feel to have wasted your time throwing out yet another insult? Glad to hear I can still get your goat. Heh!

[Don]

Sorry, Johnny.

We're trying to keep this forum as a place where people can disagree without fear of being attacked. That will allow for lively debate. In many forums people don't participate because they don't want to be attacked. The result is that the forum becomes endless and meaningless fights between a small group of verbal bullies.

So everyone, please keep the flames down to mere chiding, okay? :)

Meanwhile, keep posting and sharing your ideas, concepts, and beliefs!

[solaris152000]

Just on that point I think its in this topic, where I said about "wouldnt it be better to just hit that person with a dustbin lid" that was a joke.

But then some1 else said "just like everyone in the xxxxxxxxxx does". Tbh I think you allowing that sort of racist crap, is way out of order, I almost always agree with your moderation, and I resspect te mods on this forum for that. But it seems youve let down your gaurd so to speak.

But maybe this comment is relevant, after all this thread is quite a heated debate now, so maybe they felt anger and decided to lash out on there easiest scapecoat, the middle east.

[beachrose]

Okay, first of all, I could not read that 1st post, due to the run on sentences. Maybe the 1st reply was sarcastic, but I had to agree. After that, I had to depend on the replies to decipher what the original poster's problem was.

So let me offer a first solution to the original poster: a book called the Art of Plain Talk. I had to read it myself to stop writing in circles - it's very short & encouraging - and effective! :)

*****
A bunch of years ago, I was run over by a car full of muggers (remember crack?) That made me pretty angry. Then they charged $500 on my card. Then they sold my keys to a second set of vermin, who stalked our house for six weeks, trying to break in. Then the card tried to make me pay the $500. And the hospital came after me for the health care $. And did I mention I couldn't take a walk by myself for a year? That the police let all the perps free? And I accidentally found the offending (very distinctive) car parked near work for a year?

BUT, bleeding heart liberal that I am, while I realized I wanted to strangle them personally, I remembered the little kid in their car, and I thought, "nice example. Poor kid." And, "well, I may not find them, but they're already in their hell, of many stripes."

So yeah, choice over reaction. Still working on that one.

[Terry (existing)]

It's amazing how some people only see one side of any situation, and wonder why others don't see it as they do. I have always known that I have choices each and every day, and that I can choose to be victim or not as I wish. Now at times when there is an outbreak of burglaries in my area, I can be smart and ensure my windows and doors are lock at night, or not, and I also have choices as to if I will let this bother me and have me live in a state of fear or not. Chances are, bolting doors is a good idea, running scared is not since this leave my under the control of the perp instead of myself.... By that same token, when out for a walk, I alway walk with my head high, and shoulders back, and don't care who is about, I own the bloody neighbourhood, and they had better know it. Now I do know that this has an effect of others who see me and to them I am a confident person capable of taking care of myself, but fact is I can do this because I did the work to be confident. I did learn Ju Jitsu, boxing and wrestling as a young man, and later hypnosis for a strong mind. I don;t normally look for trouble, and my own actions put me in a position were I avoid it, but reading some of the posts makes me wonder at the attitude of the poster, not of those they perceive as picking on them...
Yes I have been in situations were those around me we looking for blood, but that is rare, and I had no problem controlling that situation verbally, just as is suggested by Skip and others. On the other hand, not being female, I have never been raped, though I have fanticised at times.... but my question would be, why are you in a situation were this can happen? Why were you drinking among strangers, or persons you had no reason to trust? It is rare that a woman is attacked by a stranger, but when it happens it is often in some place I would expect my daughter to avoid after dark..... As for the work place situations, I have never been picked on, but would suspect that anyone who is deserves it as most people are friendly or at least accepting of others.
You can control your own life and attitudes, but you also can control the attitudes of others if you watch you own. Nobody would say, "don't learn the skills to defend yourself against an attack, but in heavens name stop making up situations were you will need to use those skills. Incidentally, you can train in all the holds, kicks, and moves you need to defend yourself, and when needed in an emergency, will freeze up and not use them, while learning the mental states of self control, not only will you not freeze up, but situations will NOT arise were they are needed....

[beachrose]

I agree attitude does affect the situation somewhat. When I was travelling in Brazil, I was walking with some friends at sunset in Ipanema (sidewalk) when I felt a TUG downward, on the small purse (its cords previously laced throughout my hand and around my wrist.) I presumed it was a dog, so I whirled around, waving my arms BIG to scare it ("Yee-AAAAAHHHHH!") only to find myself staring up at the started face of a really big guy. he looked at me like I was nuts, then turned and loped off.

Mistake #1: allowing myself to get tired of wearing my wallet inside my blouse.

When the muggers ran me down here in LA., it was broad daylight, and I was on the sidewalk of a tidy residential street in semi-tony Santa Monica. BUT - I was carrying my purse on my shoulder, something I never would have done travelling. All the cops were at the beach recruiting, and the perps took advantage of that... they had just hit another woman 15 mins before me...

Funny thing was -- about 1/2 hour before, I'd stopped mid-trek to put on my sneakers, in case I had to run. (my car was originally locked in the gym's lot, hence the hike) So go figure: chicken, or egg?

Just the same, they were so deseperate and WILD - I think they would have randomly mown anyone down for $5. I just fled when they targeted me so as not to get dragged in the car and tortured. It's strange to hear a car gunning for you, you just calculate.... I figured I was either going to be a newspaper article in 30 seconds or 6 hours, so I decided to take my chances and bolt.

Didn't carry a purse again for about 3 years after that, nor walked alone, nor rode in convertibles (until recently. those are fun!)

All that said - yes, make the most of that part of the dynamic which is yours - I concur wholeheartedly on that....

[Robert H]

I agree that the first step in defending oneself is to choose to be at cause.

so, for whatever reason, unconscious or otherwise, a person creates the circumstances, and conditions that lead to them being mugged.

Now, the person is being attacked. How do they handle it?

An Aikido master that I know said that there varying degrees of mastery of the art of Aikido. Aikido by the way can be said to be "the way of energetic harmony" And Aikido will probably not be an effective choice for self defense until it has been diligently practiced for about at least a few years.

So, the first level of mastery of aikido (and perhaps any martial art), is the ability to emerge from an actual physical conflict unscathed.

The second level of mastery is to emerge from an actual physical conflict with both you and your assailant unscathed.

The third level of mastery is diffuse an imminent physical conflict once it has become imminent / or unavoidable.

The fourth level is to recognize that things are moving toward a conflict and to diffuse the situation before physical violence ever becomes violent or dangerous.

using NLP and Hypnotic skill is the kind of thing that can set one up for thrid and fouth level mastery.

for one thing - sensory acuity. Can you recognize when someone is moving toward a state from which they are likely to become violent?

Over the Fourth of July I witnessed a nice example of somewhere in between level 3 /4...Some friends and I were lighting fireworks A neighbor was drunk, and approached one of my friends who was in the street about light a fireworks.

The drunken neighbor had a beer bottle in one hand and as the verbal exchange between the two became heated, the drunken enighbor started to hold the bottle as weapon, rather than a beverage. Thus, signalling that he probably intended to use it as such. Which matched his overall message.

My friend Bob astutely noticed this, and positioned himself at a 45 degree between the neighbor and my other friend.

This dramatically altered the dynamic occuring between my other friend and the neighbor. The neighbor walked away 30 seconds later.

It was more sensory acuity and a superior show of force than any fancy NLP trick. You can also think of it as a pattern interrupt.

Rapport and Aikido have a lot in common. In fact, I have attended Aikido classes where we were taught by the Japanese Master (Gaku Hamma Sensei who has studied directly with the founder of Aikido - O'sensei, and definitely knows nothing explicity about NLP) to match the breathing of our opponent as we executed certain aikido moves.

Richard Bandler is an accomplished martial artist, at least so he claims. Whatever the source or sources of pacing breathing in NLP - it was fascinating to find this in the martial arts world as well.

I've heard that at a bar fight in Pennslyvania some years that the police were called to - there was a Karate black belt that had leveled several of the people in the bar. As the police were squaring off with him, one of the officers recognizing his style, shouted "oui!!" which is the command in that art ( i think it was Shotokan) to return to ready position. The black belts body responded instantenously, and the police basically dog piled him.

In NLP this is called "stealing anchors".

So - yes NLP can be used in combat situations.

Robert

[AnthonyM83]

Hmmm, Terry. I agree with the mindset of choosing to be a victim or not, but the way you wrote your post, it makes it seem like people who find themselves in violent victim situations did it b/c they didn't have a good enough mindset. In my city, most of the stranger rape / sexual assault situations have happened in areas most wouldn't consider particularly dangerous and during daylight hours.

(Ex: For a few months, we had rapists who would pull up next to a jogger in a van, open the side door, yank girl in, take off.)

Outside of work, most of the use of force situations I've been in have been situations I couldn't control. I wasn't in an unsafe place, I wasn't minding the business of others, I didn't provoke, and I didn't have the opportunity to talk my way out of it.

Also, a female could take all kinds of measures to prevent the violence, but many methods would require giving up things they'd rather not. They could not go out to bars, for example or never take walks around their neighborhood alone. If they're going to do it anyway, might as well be prepared for those violent situations with some martial art/fighting training.

Yes, people do come up with all kinds of potential what-if situations, but I've found most situations where I've had to use force or almost did, were actually far-fetched ones that someone would have thought would be ridiculous.

[AnthonyM83]

So - yes NLP can be used in combat situations. I'm trying to think of other situations where NLP can be used in combat. The only thing I can think of is to yell, "Wait!" really fast (as if something really important needed to be said) and hope the attacker has an anchor to "wait!" and they hesitate for moment, so you can escape.

[prats]

skip i get your point crystal clear,but the fact that you keep using smoke & mirrors to avoid my question, leads me to believe you really dont know the answer do you. you can design your own reality all you want an you are still not immune to lifes trials & tribulations , just ask the victims at the world trade center,are the solidiers in iraq,or Nicole Simpson, or Rodney King,or all the children who were molested by catholic priest.... im sure there questions would be very relevant skip.My supervisor last night was walking downtown & got attacked by a homeless person with a knife.it was not by his design or choice.he got cut pretty bad all over his hands. but the only way he was able to survive was to fightback or he would have been killed. you said in your post theres other magical possibilities than being beatin up or beatin the guy up but for some mysterious reason you cant tell me the "specific possibilities".i really would love to know skip. you wont tell me,you cant tell me, because you dont know. do you. so you give me theses smoke & mirror answers like some little green star wars character:believe in the force luke. i strongly suspect if that was you being attacked by a homeless man with a knife skip,not by your choice or design, you would come from behind that nlp wall that your hiding behind & react to save your life & your love ones life real fast.just like anyone else. i see that you like to ignore this part of reality & its all my fault , im living in effect etc..

if your going to design your life skip & live in cause, you have to design every thing.good & bad,positve & negative you cant ignore the negative & pretend it doesnt exist & say its all that persons fault because hes living in effect. you by insurance for your car not beacause you feel like a victim, not because you fear the unknown, not because you plan to get into a accident. we know that somthings in life happen that our out of our control so we design or life in a way to handle these situations if we need to. warmly,thnkbg

Hi Skip,

I've been on the forum for a few months now. quite a few interesting things but nothing I would really feel like commenting about with too much ability. Untill now. I just had to register yesterday and post this comment. Because whatever I feel about thnkbg personally, I do understand the point that he/she is making.

Let's say for a moment you leave aside the view that thnkbg has a victim mindset and is feeling presecuted. then the questions in this quoted post are still coming from a reasonable, logical mind.

I really am curious in this regard. What are these other possibilities that you speak of. Saying that *why* would a person land up in the situation is like putting the cart befoer the horse would'nt you say?

We can surely start off from the point of *being* in the situation right? One doesn't have to know how one got in to the situation to understand the options of getting out of it.

Lastly I'd like to make one unrelated point here. Like I said, i've been browsing the forums or a few months now and if there are two people whose opinions I respect its Merlin and yourself. And this is one of the reasons that I'll really appreciate a reply.

cheers,
prats

[Terry (existing)]

It seems that some have misunderstood my attitude when it comes to being attacked, and assume I mean the victim is at fault for being attacked. Such would be a stupid attitude to which I don;t ascribe. I offered methods wereby a woman in particullar might negate some of the reasons why they might become a victim, but obviously there are many reasons, and many aproaches to this. Personal attitudes are one part of the whole in preventing an attack and when all these are in place, and an attack still takes place, then and only then do we need to look at defence of the person. I have in the past taught self defence based on hypnosis, so obviously I don't discount any method of ensuring ones safety. I do however see a problem with the first post of this thread, and replied accordingly, as did many others. What would you expect from posting online? We don't offer remote training, only advise, and that in short posts.....

[Dizzy]

No offence Terry, but it was quite ovious what he meant. Is it not better to give him the advice he needs, rather than quibble about the exact words in these short posts...

[prats]

Firstly, apologies for repeating this post. I posted this yesterday but I thought it got lost somewhere in the middle of so many posts up there.

am taking the liberty to repost it at the end of the thread.

Originally Posted by thnkbg
skip i get your point crystal clear,but the fact that you keep using smoke & mirrors to avoid my question, leads me to believe you really dont know the answer do you. you can design your own reality all you want an you are still not immune to lifes trials & tribulations , just ask the victims at the world trade center,are the solidiers in iraq,or Nicole Simpson, or Rodney King,or all the children who were molested by catholic priest.... im sure there questions would be very relevant skip.My supervisor last night was walking downtown & got attacked by a homeless person with a knife.it was not by his design or choice.he got cut pretty bad all over his hands. but the only way he was able to survive was to fightback or he would have been killed. you said in your post theres other magical possibilities than being beatin up or beatin the guy up but for some mysterious reason you cant tell me the "specific possibilities".i really would love to know skip. you wont tell me,you cant tell me, because you dont know. do you. so you give me theses smoke & mirror answers like some little green star wars character:believe in the force luke. i strongly suspect if that was you being attacked by a homeless man with a knife skip,not by your choice or design, you would come from behind that nlp wall that your hiding behind & react to save your life & your love ones life real fast.just like anyone else. i see that you like to ignore this part of reality & its all my fault , im living in effect etc..

if your going to design your life skip & live in cause, you have to design every thing.good & bad,positve & negative you cant ignore the negative & pretend it doesnt exist & say its all that persons fault because hes living in effect. you by insurance for your car not beacause you feel like a victim, not because you fear the unknown, not because you plan to get into a accident. we know that somthings in life happen that our out of our control so we design or life in a way to handle these situations if we need to. warmly,thnkbg


Hi Skip,

I've been on the forum for a few months now. quite a few interesting things but nothing I would really feel like commenting about with too much ability. Untill now. I just had to register yesterday and post this comment. Because whatever I feel about thnkbg personally, I do understand the point that he/she is making.

Let's say for a moment you leave aside the view that thnkbg has a victim mindset and is feeling presecuted. then the questions in this quoted post are still coming from a reasonable, logical mind.

I really am curious in this regard. What are these other possibilities that you speak of. Saying that *why* would a person land up in the situation is like putting the cart befoer the horse would'nt you say?

We can surely start off from the point of *being* in the situation right? One doesn't have to know how one got in to the situation to understand the options of getting out of it.

Lastly I'd like to make one unrelated point here. Like I said, i've been browsing the forums or a few months now and if there are two people whose opinions I respect its Merlin and yourself. And this is one of the reasons that I'll really appreciate a reply.

cheers,
prats

[skip]

Prats,

"Let's say for a moment you leave aside the view that thnkbg has a victim mindset and is feeling presecuted. then the questions in this quoted post are still coming from a reasonable, logical mind."

Agreed, but not very useful. We can take on any mindset we care to. I can view everything as if I were a space aliean. And taking those esoteric POV's can be fun. BUT the relevent question is, "Is this a useful POV to take?" or better, "Does assuming this POV help me achieve what I want to achieve?"

I really dont care that the questions raised make sense from one particular POV or another. I am pointing out that, that particular POV, generates very reasonable logical conclusions, that are **** for living life well.

I know a guy who lives in the town where I do who has made a crusade over handicapped access. He has made a colossal nuisence of himself. He has lost friends, respect, cooperation, accomodation, etc. I have a friend who has brittle bone disease. He is married, has children, became mayor, practices law, is a community leader.

What's the difference. It isnt intelligence or good looks, or atheletic ability. It is purely the POV that each has chosen to take, about their particualr situation.

Now look at the questions and situations thnkbg poses. What is the common charactaristic that stands out? One that stood out very clearly to me was, everything was "just happening" to thnkbg. It was just as if thnkbg just fell out of the sky and consistantly landed in ****ty situations. And when thnkbg thought about the future it was invarably, "Wow I am about to get my ass kicked, someone tell me how to get out of this one."

That thinking results in, "Living at effect." You are the ping pong ball, and the world is the paddle. And all your perceptions are going to be, how do I fix what 'just happened'. AND not only that but thinkbg was powerless to help himself, he "needed" someone to tell him how to get himself of his fantasy situation. Yes, I said he found himself powerless to imagine a way out of his own fantasy!

Did you ever hear the joke about the general who asked the private what he was going to do if a batallion of tanks came over the hill? The private replied that he would call an artillary strike from the fleet of battleships, to destroy the tanks. The general was pretty smug, and asked, "Just where are you going to get those imaginary battleships?" "The same place you got those imaginary tanks."

Some people dont want their life to be 'just happened'. They want to be at cause.

And when they shift their thinking, so that they 'take responsibility' for their situation, irregardless of what it is, or how it 'happened', an amazing thing happens. The entire world changes. And from that POV, the questions thnkbg was asking become childish and irrelevent instead of reasonable and logial.

"I really am curious in this regard. What are these other possibilities that you speak of. Saying that *why* would a person land up in the situation is like putting the cart befoer the horse would'nt you say? We can surely start off from the point of *being* in the situation right? One doesn't have to know how one got in to the situation to understand the options of getting out of it."

Why would we want to start from a point of 'being in a ****ty situation'? When I play imagination fantasy games I can assure you that I dont start from a point of *being* attacked, I start from incredibly nice places and move on to even better ones.

My point is very simple.

You can view the world the way you want to. You cannot control every thing yet, but you can control far more than you have imagined. But you can only do that by believing that you have the power and ability to control it in the first place. If your POV is that things just happen, that you just suddenly appear in 'tight situations', then you will never have the power to work your way out, because you have given up your power, to the universe to do with you as it will, and most assuredly, it will.

If however you assume, pretend, believe, that you affect your destiny, that you have the power to effect your results, then your results will consistantly be more to your liking, and you will never find youself 'suddenly appearing' in a school of hungry sharks.

Do you really want to find yourself saying, "It was on fire when I laid down on it."?

skip

[prats]

Point Taken. Thanks for replying, Skip.

Cheers,
Prats.