View Full Version : What's the point 'planting' people with false beliefs?
mariah
02-20-2005, 04:07 AM
Suggestions like "I am happy", "I am confident", "I love people", doesn't really work as a truth here- now does it? I highly doubt this will make the patient feel more real and happy and confident, as there are no specific reasons for them to feel this way. If they don't feel happy, let the person be "unhappy". More than likely they NEED to feel this way. A reaction that something isn't like they want it to be. A reason to CHANGE something within themselves or in their lives, but not to change the actual REACTION. "Act confident, and you will be"- thats something someone said was the same for horses as it is with people! But does pretending you're confident really MAKE you confident? No. Does pretending you're happy make you happy? Same thing, no. What's the point planting in false beliefs like that- then? People need to feel the way they really feel. I hate how they place people in "category's" nowadays, I hate how they use illnesses as a way to describe what people are going through. More than likely, that is not what they are going through. It is not an illness, it is a reaction/feeling to something, what they need to go through to learn from what they HAVE gone through. I don't know, seems like the world is MAKING people crazy, rather than the opposite.
Hello Mariah,
If you had a choice to either feel bad most of the time, or feel good most of the time, which would you choose?
I agree with you entirely that simply making suggestions without any foundation for the suggestion is a waste of time. It is why so many tapes and CDs containing direct suggestions fail. The subconscious says 'I am not happy' and the tape says 'I am happy' but there is no reason for the subconscious to change its perception.
Enter the therapist. A good hypnotherapist will never just make direct suggestions of this nature without giving the subconscious very good reasons to accept the suggestions. That may involve regression, it may not, the important thing is that the subconscious understands that change is necessary for the benefit of the whole.
As for pretending something about yourself, well, we all spend our lives pretending and the more we pretend the more we tend to become that which we pretend to be. I'm only pretending to be Jack, since that is not my real name, but I could be Jack if I chose to. Perhaps I am only pretending to be a hypnotherapist but the pretence has overidden the fact that I am the Prince of Wales. Neither is true, but could be if I wish it so and pretend enough. Of course the real Charles might object, the impostor!
HRH Charles, Prince of Wales.
(Yes it really isn't me).
mariah
02-20-2005, 02:42 PM
Jack, thats very interesting. I will use your "prince-example" as a way to describe this as well.. if you are pretending to be a prince, giving yourself the suggestion that "I am a prince". "I am the Prince of Wales".. does that make you the Prince of Wales? If you say yes, then I suppose.. the convincing worked pretty well! But what happens when the Prince of Wales appear on TV, and this person is.. not you? It's the same with pretending you're someone you're not, because matter of truth is- or at least how I see it, you are "someone", and this someone is only for you to "find", and figure out who is. Why do you think they say "I have to find myself".. they need to find who they already are, underneath the pretending and pretending-to-feel. So I don't believe we are what we believe, but we believe what we believe, and can very much pretend to be this person as well even as we don't consqiously know we are "pretending". What do you think?
Tudor
02-20-2005, 11:37 PM
Hi Mariah
Consciously or not Consciously aware.
I’m trying to travel as much as I can and when doing that you meet up with a lot of nice traveller. Formal introduction then the question about work “what do you do for a living”. Sometimes it’s just boring (for me) to tell the same old story about what I have been working with. My background is very diversified and if I tell the “whole truth” it take’s a looong time (boring for me, perhaps not for you when you hear it the first time). So, I started to pretend that I did something else and to my amazement – I didn’t have any problem at all to pretend to be some one else. My first trip to Asia mid –80. No, there were no drugs that helped me pretend:-). As long as I stayed in “character” I acted convincing and carried different feelings from when I was “myself”.
The thing is, I didn’t pretend to be the person (The King of Siam or a M H Erickson or the carpenter from Nazareth or …) I pretended to have the knowledge, upbringing and emotion of the persons that would do that type of work so I could do it convincing.
So, if I where to pretend that I was prince Charles I would just pretend to have he’s manner, emotions, feelings etc.
You need to try out a new outfit to know if it fits you.
After trying the complete wardrobe perhaps it’s just the shoes you like – so be it.
In your new shoes you are on you way to the next stores to se if something new exciting garment is there for you.
Do you play the piano?
No!
Have you tried it?
No!
Then, how do you know that you can’t play the piano?
Peter
Mariah, on a practical basis reality is that which we can get other people to agree is reality. I could pretend effectively to be Charles, but no-one would believe me. If I believed that I really was the Prince then those others would put me in a nice, warm place where I could indulge my belief safely. Of course they could all be wrong.
Inside all of us there is a 'truth' about who we are, but often we have covered this truth with layers of self-protection. This 'real self' is, IMO, every bit as much a construct as the layers surrounding it. It is formed perhaps by genetic influence and early life experience, and as the experiences change, so does the concept of self.
In therapy, the idea is not so much to get at the 'real self' but to get at a concept of self which will address the presenting problem. If that involves pretending, regression, past lives, gestalt, metaphor or any other method of change then a good therapist will use it. It is surprising how effective pretending can be - often I can ask a client to pretend that they are in trance, and they will be in one, but if I asked an underconfident person to pretend to be confident then it is unlikely that he would suddenly become confident because there are subconscious reasons for the lack of confidence which will need addressing before he can pretend to be confident with any conviction.
I agree that conscious pretending is fairly useless in achieving change.
Jack
betlamed
02-21-2005, 04:08 AM
Suggestions like "I am happy", "I am confident", "I love people", doesn't really work as a truth here- now does it? I highly doubt this will make the patient feel more real and happy and confident, as there are no specific reasons for them to feel this way. If they don't feel happy, let the person be "unhappy".
Just talking from personal experience: A few times each day, I give myself a little break, just a few moments of experiencing a little trance and a little positive induction. I can give myself this little "happiness" then, it doesn't even need to be true. It does feel good, however, and I think it makes me more happy, confident and loving on the whole. Not that it's a drastic change, making a saint of the devil I really am... but I do feel a little better, after all.
bl
mariah
02-21-2005, 06:02 AM
Hi Mariah
Consciously or not Consciously aware.
I’m trying to travel as much as I can and when doing that you meet up with a lot of nice traveller. Formal introduction then the question about work “what do you do for a living”. Sometimes it’s just boring (for me) to tell the same old story about what I have been working with. My background is very diversified and if I tell the “whole truth” it take’s a looong time (boring for me, perhaps not for you when you hear it the first time). So, I started to pretend that I did something else and to my amazement – I didn’t have any problem at all to pretend to be some one else. My first trip to Asia mid –80. No, there were no drugs that helped me pretend:-). As long as I stayed in “character” I acted convincing and carried different feelings from when I was “myself”.
The thing is, I didn’t pretend to be the person (The King of Siam or a M H Erickson or the carpenter from Nazareth or …) I pretended to have the knowledge, upbringing and emotion of the persons that would do that type of work so I could do it convincing.
So, if I where to pretend that I was prince Charles I would just pretend to have he’s manner, emotions, feelings etc.
You need to try out a new outfit to know if it fits you.
After trying the complete wardrobe perhaps it’s just the shoes you like – so be it.
In your new shoes you are on you way to the next stores to se if something new exciting garment is there for you.
Do you play the piano?
No!
Have you tried it?
No!
Then, how do you know that you can’t play the piano?
Peter
I very much believe that you can pretend to be something and at the same time not pretending. The difference here is that you pretended to be something different to OTHERS, but YOU still knew the real truth about your profession and your education. You may have consqiously tried to convince other people that you were a different person, but at the same time you are doing this all consqiously. Well, this I do not know, but I am guessing.. Say you were to pretend you were a doctor, we all know that pretending you're a doctor doesn't make you a doctor. You can fake your knowledge, but in the hospital you are most likely going to FAIL being a doctor as you don't REALLY have the knowledge. Speaking of FAILING at being something you're not, I once pretended I was British and started to ask people in my country questions in English. But no one believed I was from England, they all thought I was American!.. and I'm not even American! So there you go.. people wind up thinking you're somebody you were not even trying to be!
CunningLinguist
02-21-2005, 06:12 AM
A few points from my personal perspective:
1) Different things work for different people. Some people have success with very simple affirmations... some don't (I don't for example).
2) Suggestions don't have to be simplistic. If you write a number of suggestions you can cover the same goal from a number of angles... including reinforcement and giving your subconscious a reason to change. You don't need a therapist to do that!
3) Behaving like you already have the desired behaviour can work (again depending on the person). We all know how a confident person behaves, and if we behave like them, get some positive reactions; then it reinforces the behaviour (by getting a benefit from that behaviour). Of course, you can crash and burn if you don't get positive reactions! ;)
mariah
02-21-2005, 06:14 AM
Mariah, on a practical basis reality is that which we can get other people to agree is reality. I could pretend effectively to be Charles, but no-one would believe me. If I believed that I really was the Prince then those others would put me in a nice, warm place where I could indulge my belief safely. Of course they could all be wrong.
Inside all of us there is a 'truth' about who we are, but often we have covered this truth with layers of self-protection. This 'real self' is, IMO, every bit as much a construct as the layers surrounding it. It is formed perhaps by genetic influence and early life experience, and as the experiences change, so does the concept of self.
In therapy, the idea is not so much to get at the 'real self' but to get at a concept of self which will address the presenting problem. If that involves pretending, regression, past lives, gestalt, metaphor or any other method of change then a good therapist will use it. It is surprising how effective pretending can be - often I can ask a client to pretend that they are in trance, and they will be in one, but if I asked an underconfident person to pretend to be confident then it is unlikely that he would suddenly become confident because there are subconscious reasons for the lack of confidence which will need addressing before he can pretend to be confident with any conviction.
I agree that conscious pretending is fairly useless in achieving change.
Jack
OK, so this is what *I* believe. The layers of self-protection is not who we are, its how we feel. How we feel, is not who we are- if what we feel are being infuenced by experiences or memories from something happening- anything that has influenced us from feeling the way we really do. Anything we are pretending to be is an influence from something we feel, either we are "protecting" ourselves because we have been hurt, harassed or anything else involving "bad experiences". I see it this way; its the same when someone break a leg because they fall on the ice, its not who they are, but its how it affected them. They broke a leg. And they are now using "self-protection" (plaster/or whatever) to "heal" the 'wounds' from it. Whether or not the "self-protection" we are using from FEELING a certain way from the past is making us 'heal' or not, we subconsqiously believe it does- the same way a child stop hurting when you put a plaster on their cut or whatever. So maybe we are hypnotised to act this way, perhaps its even about trauma.
"It is formed perhaps by genetic influence and early life experience, and as the experiences change, so does the concept of self."
In a way you are right, but in a way this could also be totally wrong. Change comes from within, most of the time it really does. Even as someone's experiences change, the experience to this person may still be the same. I believe thats what we call a trauma, a feeling of experiencing and 'being' in the past even as you are moving forward and getting faced with new experiences every day.
Neurotic1
02-21-2005, 01:29 PM
A friend of mine recently split with his long-term girlfriend. He was telling me that he won't meet someone else for a long term relationship for at least ten years. I asked him if, the next time he is faced with a gorgeous blond girl (his type) who is asking him for a date, he will say 'no I'm sorry but I'm not going to meet anyone for at least another 9 1/2 years yet'?
What I would suggest is that you can either focus on positive feelings or you can focus on negative feelings. Whilst this doesn't necessarily change the circumstance we find ourselves in, I would rather be happy and unfortunate than miserable and unfortunate because at least I will feel better about my misfortune. On the plus side, like my friend above, I am more likely to spot opportunities if I focus on the positive and open my mind beyond misery and misfortune to possibilities for advancing my satisfaction with life.
Best wishes
Well, we all have a unique perspective on who we are and despite thousands of years of introspection we still don't know.
The layers of self-protection are just that: constructs to prevent real or imagined damage to the psyche. Feelings are one result of those constructs.
I look at a view from a high place, I feel peace and calm; a phobic looks at the same view and feels fear and panic. My feeling results from never having had an experience at height which frightened me. The phobic response is the reverse.
"It is formed perhaps by genetic influence and early life experience, and as the experiences change, so does the concept of self."
In a way you are right, but in a way this could also be totally wrong. Change comes from within, most of the time it really does. Even as someone's experiences change, the experience to this person may still be the same. I believe thats what we call a trauma, a feeling of experiencing and 'being' in the past even as you are moving forward and getting faced with new experiences every day.
Change does indeed come from within, but within there are experiences and a measure of genetic predisposition which either allow or deny those changes. However, the stimulus for change must come from without. If it did not then change could not occur simply because there is no new information to stimulate the acceptance or denial of change.
A favourite word of psychologists is 'conflict' and often this occurs as the result of a new experience not tallying with an entrenched experience; in effect a denial that the new experience has validity compared to the old one.
It goes back to what we were discussing about confidence:merely imparting new information consciously is not enough to cause change unless the information tallies with experience, or the older experience is not important enough to be be kept intact.
Jack