Alvin's Big Adventure...(ADD)

[Alvin]

(One of my smart a** nephews told me I bear a resemblance to Pee Wee Herman)

First - I sorta got lost in the logistics (ie, how & where you reply in the thread) of the "belief vs reality" thread & missed some replies. (And, I wonder if Cassandra and Merlin did also - can't believe neither took the bait...) So let me respond to EC, which will segue to the subject at hand...

EC
Alvin, if I may be so bold as to intrude in your banter with Skip, I am going to assume (dangerous I know) that you may be involved in the counseling field.
I'm a counselor by education only, not experience or vocation.

I am unclear whether you desire to experiment with hypnosis for personal improvement, or, to utilize in a practice with clients.
Personal improvement

First, and either way, I think you could do lots worse than Durbin.
Thanks for the additional validation

The brain is a computer, it runs programs. Programs are quite easy to alter, delete or replace.
I believe you are correct, but this could become a lengthy discussion all its own. As to altering or replacing the programs, perhaps it's easy for a skilled "technician". And maybe the level of skill needed depends on how deep into the program you must go to alter it. I am only semi-literate on my PC. I can make some elementary program alterations. But, if I were to stray into the area of the OS, I'd rather have the kid down the hall in my office building do it, because deleting one seemingly insignificant line of code could alter the way all other programs operate. So I can install MS Word, or uninstall it, or change the size/color of the fonts, etc. with a little training. But if a virus or worm or Trojan Horse gets by Norton, the symptoms may be such that I won't even know how to determine what my problem is (worse, the problem may be asymptomatic).

Ok -there really was a purpose in this digression....

I have ADD (possibly, mild ADHD). The first symptoms I want to deal with are distractibility, a general inability to focus, and procrastination. (Those familiar with the clinical diagnosis realize that an ADD is also capable of intense focus at times). Example: at my office, with a list (one of the ADDers primary crutches) of the "top 10" things to do that day, I'll begin one, skip to the next, take several phone calls, begin #3, stop & return to #1, etc.

Is hypnosis likely to help? Now, realize - I think I'm dealing with the OS here, not just a learned behavior (the "program") (although, learned behaviors may exacerbate the problem). Indeed, long ago when I was in graduate school ADD was characterized as "Minimal Brain Dysfunction". If I had a musculoskeletal abnormality instead - say, a malformed muscle in my leg, which adversely affected my ability to jog - I might try to accommodate or assist the limitation rather than engage in surgical correction. In essence, that is what I've done all my life thus far.

[voodoochild]

I think I saw quite some books on ADD and ADHD on amazon with good reviews...
Even one with a bandler foreword.. Maybe these will help you more specifically with your problems ?

[Merlin]

Hello Alvin,

> I think I'm dealing with the OS here

Are you willing to change, or at least question your beliefs about ADD?
Most of the time it is not an OS level issue :)

> Indeed, long ago when I was in graduate school ADD was characterized as "Minimal Brain Dysfunction".

Also a less than desirable 'belief'
The brain is functioning fine, it just needs the 'preferences' tweaked.

More often than not the issue [ADD] is with strategies.
So in reality, the is no need for 'programming' it's more of changing 'preferences'.

>an ADD is also capable of intense focus at times

As you note, the problem is not ability to focus so much as for how long or on what... 'preference' settings :)

Hypnosis will work wonders for this, though NLP is like supercharging the engine :)

[Alvin]

Merlin:
Are you willing to change, or at least question your beliefs about ADD?

Absolutely - if I think the person trying to alter my beliefs is knowledgeable on the subject. My most recent reading (a few years ago) was Driven to Distraction by psychiatrists (and ADD sufferers) Hallowell & Ratley, which I consider to be one of the better books on the subject. There's also a lot of fluff written on the subject.


More often than not the issue [ADD] is with strategies.
So in reality, the is no need for 'programming' it's more of changing 'preferences'.

Please elaborate.

As you note, the problem is not ability to focus so much as for how long or on what... 'preference' settings

A bit of an oversimplification. And, one would not want to focus intensely on each given task throughout the day - you'd be mentally exhausted rather quickly. The trick would be to be able to elevate, to some degree, the "average" level of focus so as to avoid distractions - that's what most people are able to do without trying. That would be "tweaking", as you suggest. But with most ADDers, it's either intense focus or a lack thereof.

[EC]

Most excellent reply Merlin :)



Hi Alvin,

No bait, just truth, Merlin knew :)

Alvin

>> I think I'm dealing with the OS here



EC

Same as Merlin, just little more emphatic, I haven’t found ADD to be an OS problem. Some things certainly require a brain surgeon (OS tech), but then again, many issues are simply software glitches.



Alvin

> Indeed, long ago when I was in graduate school ADD was characterized as "Minimal Brain Dysfunction". Also a less than desirable 'belief'. The brain is functioning fine, it just needs the 'preferences' tweaked.



EC

See, you already knew no brain surgeon was needed. Just a software glitch.



EC

Now that we have initially established that ADD is likely only a software glitch, and you have made the decision to remain open minded to accept the truth,,,,and though I rarely attempt to spread truth where it is not desired, please allow me to violate my own code, "cut thru the fluff" and paint a picture (Though I am not a wonderful artist).



Boy A: Moves from childhood to adulthood with all the instinctually needed answers about who and what he is, about life, love, father, mother, being a boy, a man, etc,,, just kinda falling into place as he goes. He doesn’t have what we call ADD, it is not his developed nature to search.



Boy B: Moves from childhood to adulthood with SOME of the instinctually needed answer files being completed, but, somewhere along the way, a perceived critical answer is not readily apparent. Say for example the father doesn’t know much about raising kids and he, likely unintentionally, causes Boy B to question his self worth (feel different). So Boy B, begins to search for the answer to why he feels different. Kinda creates a software glitch. Boy B keeps moving thru life, cause life just don’t stop and wait for answers, but part of Boy B never stops seeking the answer. The old brain just doesn’t want to give up until the file on self worth is complete. Pretty soon, no matter how hard Boy B tries to focus on the task at hand, the old brain “jerks” him back to "his reality” and say’s, lets keep looking, you haven’t found the answer. Maybe Boy B even seeks psychology as a profession, still looking...., but doesn’t find an adequate answer so he drops that nonsense and gets a real job......, still looking. Boy B goes to the office every day with the very best of intentions, but the old brain just ain’t giving up. About the time he has got that daily planner all set up, unconscious reaches up and jerks him back to continue the search.



We call this continued search ADD sometimes.



Boy B can believe that a OS tech is needed, but may find they don’t have the skills…..

Boy B can take Ritalin to try to focus, but he is fighting a higher power, the unconscious.

Boy B can rush to a psychotherapist for 5 or 6 years @#$%&*@

Boy B can get really tired of fighting himself and come to a decision: Dammit, do I go all the way back to the missing file and fill it in (hypnosis can do that), or, can I simply make the choice to stop spending all my time searching (NLP can do that, hypnosis can too).



Sometimes this is true. Does it agree with your teachings, or, have I failed to apply the paint to the canvas adequately. Damn, this modern art stuff.



EC :)

[Merlin]

>if I think the person trying to alter my beliefs is knowledgeable on the subject.

Very good :)
It's good to be open to changing a belief.
It's also good to be cautious about what the change is, and who is suggesting the change.

>>So in reality, the is no need for 'programming' it's more of changing 'preferences'.

Generally, the issue is not an ability to focus attention, but rather better conscious control. Such as when to focus and for how long to focus. In 'changing preferences' I'm using the computer metaphor to explain that it is not usually too difficult to change the behaviour of "ADD" to a behaviour which is more desirable.

>A bit of an oversimplification.

Yes. Hypnotists often work that way. What would be the benefit of making it more complex?

>ne would not want to focus intensely on each given task throughout the day...

One should have conscious control and be able to consciously decide what to pay attention to and for how long.

>But with most ADDers, it's either intense focus or a lack thereof.

Yes, but it's like books on a bookshelf. It's easily rearranged. The processes of the mind are easily rearranged with the help of a skilled artisan (hypnotist).

[Alvin]

EC: Let me try to describe the landscape you’re painting a bit more then you can return to the canvas.

I haven’t lived a life of failed relationships, failed careers, etc. (though I’ve certainly had my share of failures, like every “Boy A”) which can be somewhat typical of ADD. Even when I first studied Minimal Brain Dysfunction in graduate school, I didn’t think I fit the model (though, MUCH less was known and published about ADD in 1974). I haven’t wondered what was “wrong” with me all these years, with a never-ending search. It was not until my daughter was diagnosed by a child psychologist with ADD that I even began to research the topic. The more I read, the more I began to be convinced that I might have ADD also (there is also a strong hereditary link associated with ADD). I thought for years, for instance, that I just had a poorer memory than most people. No big deal – some people are naturally athletic, some are naturally musically inclined – others less so. I was just less gifted with memory, had to write more things down to avoid forgetting them, had to study a little harder to make decent grades (of course, studying was a problem within itself because of distractibility – but I thought everyone had the same problem).

But it was still not until a few years ago that I read Driven To Distraction that the “light came on”. The authors described so many of my personality traits – accurately - that it was uncanny. (And I am familiar with the notion that most people can read about symptoms of many diseases and begin to wonder if they have the malady). A small, rather insignificant example: an ADD person often gets agitated when a phone conversation is interrupted (such as someone near you telling you something while you try to carry on the phone conversation). And it doesn’t matter how trivial of a subject you’re engaged in on the phone. I’d always get aggravated when this happened, but I never could explain why if I was asked. Well, it’s typical of ADD.

So, while hypnotherapy may – or may not – be appropriate to treat the symptoms of ADD, I’m trying to sort out whether I should be seeking symptomatic treatment, or treatment of the underlying core problem.

It is not my desire to instigate or engage in a debate about what ADD really is (except perhaps with analogies [OS vs a program] wherein we can facilitate the discussion), to discuss whether or not I have it, whether or not I’ve adequately researched the subject, whether or not anyone really thinks ADD exists or is just a miss-diagnosed set of symptoms, etc. Everyone is entitled to their opinions (beliefs?) on those matters.

I’m interested in any comments and recommendations from those in this forum with *experience* and success dealing with ADD, but not the idle opinions or speculations of those without (realizing, of course, that I make NONE of the rules of this forum).

[EC]

Hi Alvin,

First, let me clarify something: When I painted the canvas, I was simultaneously occupied with another project and "threw in" a couple of strokes that I later regretted. First, I don't know what I meant when I stated that I didn't generally spread truth where it wasn't desired ? Please forget that part it doesn't apply. Second, when I discussed Boy A and B, particularly that Boy B might pursue psychology, I was not referring to you. I didn't intend to refer to you in any part of the analogy because I do not know your situation. If it appeared that way, I retract that part, I should have been paying more attention to what I was writing, on both scores as I was writing two things at that time, actually three ???

Whew, with that cleared up, let me get back on track:

I won't argue what ADD is or isn't, because opinions are like elbows, most of us have a couple. Most believe what they read in the psychological journals, and unfortunately, those opinions are influenced by big pharma, and/or derive from the narrowed training of those graduating from big pharma influenced medical (prescription) school. Most lay persons and even professionals believe what they read therein and I will let them have their belief. I will say that, after more cases than I can remember later, I have yet to validate the first genetic link, nor have I ever seen a case that drugs cured, nor have I ever seen a case that could be absolutely linked to pathology. What I have done is validate two causative factors that have accounted for all but a couple of cases, and in those the two factors were never ruled out for various reasons. First, It is my opinion, from experience and practice, that ADD is first and foremost "behavioral", in line with the analogy I gave. Sometimes it is not apparent, some times it is very obvious. To clarify some: I have found that reasons exist in most all cases for the individual to spend as much time "looking backwards", into the past than remaining focused in the present. This developed tendency has seemed to cause the individual to operate from more of an "emotional" level (difficult to remain focused) than a logical level which is more conducive to concentration or present focus.

Now, some of your hard core hypnotherapist won't particularly agree with this next part, however, I have found "nutrition", the Standard American Diet (SAD) to be a major factor. When you add up the behavioral issues rampant today due to the dysfunctional and/or absentee parent families, and add to that the SAD, few children stand a good chance of developing without the so-called symptoms of ADD. If family dysfunction doesn't cause it, SAD will, together they are a powerful pair for development of attention disorders, whether it is called ADD or ADHD.

EC

[EC]

And lastly,

Hypnosis, addressing underlying cause, or NLP just making a new choice, both seem to work very quickly and effectively for ADD.

EC

[Alvin]

EC,


Absolutely no offence taken about the possible reasons for pursuing a psy degree. It’s generally not a discipline most people wander into (beyond a couple of college courses) for no reason.


And, if my final comments seemed to have a bit of an edge, it is just (hopefully) to discourage idle posts and chatter on the issue. I’m all about idle chatter and foolishness, just not on this thread.


You and I agree on a lot of the facets of this problem. I fully agree that ADD is a convenient diagnosis when misbehavior is evident, and is often miss-diagnosed. All of us display symptoms of distractibility, lack of focus, physical restlessness from time to time. And diet can play a large role in creating the symptoms – whether from food allergies (eg, MSG), refined sugar, stimulants (caffeine), etc. And I wholeheartedly agree that Big Pharma LOVE to get consumers hooked on Ritalin or one of the later variants (or any other maintenance drugs they manufacture).


“When you add up the behavioral issues rampant today due to the dysfunctional and/or absentee parent families, and add to that the SAD, few children stand a good chance of developing without the so-called symptoms of ADD.” I agree completely.


But I think ADD/ADHD is real, and can be correctly diagnosed with adequate investigation into the prevailing symptoms. One very simple one of which I’m sure you are aware is that stimulants tend to have an opposite effect on ADDs than others – it increases activity levels (or creates nervousness) in non-ADD people, whereas it reduces activity levels in ADDs. I never tried Ritalin, but I noticed a pronounced effect in my daughter when she took it (though, if I had it all to do again, I’d stay away from the drug; I think the adverse long term effects outweigh the short term benefits).


“I have found that reasons exist in most all cases for the individual to spend as much time "looking backwards", into the past than remaining focused in the present. This developed tendency has seemed to cause the individual to operate from more of an "emotional" level (difficult to remain focused) than a logical level which is more conducive to concentration or present focus”


Please elaborate a bit on this one…


Thanks very much for your observations.

[EC]

Please elaborate a bit on this one…

Not sure a little bit of elaboration would do justice to the viewpoint, nor allow for an understandable read. So maybe this:

Many many aspects of life have changed since the days that families lived and shared together "on the farm", with only a radio for entertainment and an occasional trip to town. All of the wonderful inventions of this century have served to destroy family structure and create mass identity crisis and behavioral problems. One of these we call ADD. I too believe it's real. It's a by-product of todays lifestyle, but it just ain't medical other than the contribution of todays toxic diet. No longer are parents home to listen, direct, disipline. Positive validation of who we are no longer comes from the family, what we get from todays average family is the left over stress of the parents high stress job, and more often than not, it's not positive and fails to build positive self image. Now our children create their own identity based on comparisons to those they view on the good old television and those they meet on the streets. I assure you, these comparisons do not create mentally healthy individuals. It creates self-absorbed individuals that operate from an emotional basis. When logic does not dictate decisions, you gonna have a real problem operating on a daily basis. We no longer have families that instill morals, right, wrong, common decency or respect. This destruction of mental health is aggravated by humanistic thinking, by modern psychology's assertion that man must be free to pursue any direction in life, moral or immoral if he is to be healthy. This thinking results in NO direction for adults, much less our children. Our children are lost, we call this ADD, this search for who they are, what they are and where they are going. These new rules we have developed this century are destructive, such things as modern psychology's assertion that parents should not spank their children. Common sense, rules and disipline are out the window and humanism rules. Society is paying a high price and we are sacrificing the good mental health of our children for a larger lifestyle, for more income.

This is the tip of the iceberg to what I mean by family dysfunction and is certainly not a full review of the causative factors for behavioral problems. This is ADD. You are correct that stimulants "calm" the ADD afflicted. It actually pulls them "up" from their emotions, from the illogical side of their brain and into reality or logic. If you give the same drug to a non afflicted individual, it will in fact cause excitability, nervousness, etc, you see, they are already operating from the so-called upper level, from consciousness. It probably strikes most folks odd that a stimulant would "calm" an ADD sufferer, but the truth is, it does in fact pull them out of the emotions where concentration and focus are not the norm, but mood swings, depression and exitability are.

How do we fix the problem, the real fix is put values back in the family, tell little johnny he really is good and smart and give him reason to believe it. Perhaps petitioning for Paris Hilton to be removed from the public eye, and outlawing modern humanistic psychology would be a great start.

It all begins with common sense, values, self esteem and logical thinking. When you don't have that, you can often make a new choice thru NLP. It does work on the symptoms adequately in competent hands, and, it's much less traumatic than redressing one's past thru regression work.

Off my soap box now,
EC

[Alvin]

EC,

I am in general agreement with a lot of your observations about the deterioration of family values in this country, and I appreciate you taking the time to verbalize them.

However, am I correct that it would be your contention about this being the primary cause of what we call ADD - or, that ADD is simply one of the many by-products of our society's deterioration of values? This, of course, is contrary to most of what I've learned about the subject. I could easily accept childhood development as being a contributing factor but I'm not sure that's the whole picture. (And, I re-read several times your comment "This is the tip of the iceberg to what I mean by family dysfunction and is certainly not a full review of the causative factors for behavioral problems.") My understanding is that the presence of ADD exacerbates the already difficult task of childrearing, not the reverse.

I'm still of the opinion - until convinced otherwise - that ADD has its origins in the operation of the brain - the "physiological" operation of it, that is. If we were discussing Cerebral Palsy instead (which, of course, has been the subject of a much greater level of clinical research), would you be of the opinion that it is a developmental problem as opposed to a physical one?

EC:
"You are correct that stimulants "calm" the ADD afflicted. It actually pulls them "up" from their emotions, from the illogical side of their brain and into reality or logic. If you give the same drug to a non afflicted individual, it will in fact cause excitability, nervousness, etc, you see, they are already operating from the so-called upper level, from consciousness. It probably strikes most folks odd that a stimulant would "calm" an ADD sufferer, but the truth is, it does in fact pull them out of the emotions where concentration and focus are not the norm, but mood swings, depression and exitability are."

Wow. That is a radical departure from my understanding. Are there any clinical studies that support this?

[EC]

Alvin:
However, am I correct that it would be your contention about this being the primary cause of what we call ADD - or, that ADD is simply one of the many by-products of our society's deterioration of values? This, of course, is contrary to most of what I've learned about the subject. I could easily accept childhood development as being a contributing factor but I'm not sure that's the whole picture.

EC
As I stated, I believe it is much broader than deterioration of values, however; Consider this: If ADD were cancer, a huge percentage of our society would be dead. If nothing else speaks for the fact that ADD is behavioral, not medical, this fact does. Can anyone really believe that there is this much physical brain dysfunction in this country ?
ADD is entirely to rampant to be medical, although, I do feel that diet is a huge contributor.

Alvin
My understanding is that the presence of ADD exacerbates the already difficult task of childrearing, not the reverse.

EC
I too think this is the common belief, I just haven't found this to hold true.

Alvin
I'm still of the opinion - until convinced otherwise - that ADD has its origins in the operation of the brain - the "physiological" operation of it, that is. If we were discussing Cerebral Palsy instead (which, of course, has been the subject of a much greater level of clinical research), would you be of the opinion that it is a developmental problem as opposed to a physical one?

EC
Most are of the belief that ADD is physical. That is exactly what big pharma wants us to believe. It sells a lots of Ritalin. As far as CP, I won't voice an opinion because I have not worked much in that area. Brain developmental problems do exist.

Alvin
Wow. That is a radical departure from my understanding. Are there any clinical studies that support this?

EC
Probably not. But, in your reading or experiences, do you not also find that depression, mood swings, unstable emotions are also common to ADD ?

Let me ask you a question; Do you believe that a physical brain dysfunction, or chemical imbalance could be "overcome", "cured" if you will, without medication or physical medical treatment of any kind ?

EC

[Merlin]

Alvin,

I'm one who agrees with EC's viewpoint.
I doubt you'll ever see any research or clinical studies on it though.
It's just not "PC"

>I'm still of the opinion - until convinced otherwise - that ADD has its origins in the operation of the brain - the "physiological" operation of it, that is

Quote: "When the mind expects something to happen,
it will go out of its way to create that expectation as a reality."

[Thinking Things]

I have ADD (possibly, mild ADHD). The first symptoms I want to deal with are distractibility, a general inability to focus, and procrastination. (Those familiar with the clinical diagnosis realize that an ADD is also capable of intense focus at times). Example: at my office, with a list (one of the ADDers primary crutches) of the "top 10" things to do that day, I'll begin one, skip to the next, take several phone calls, begin #3, stop & return to #1, etc.
If you know the joy of intense concentration on one group of tasks and the anxiety of skipping between a group of others, what's the real difference between all these tasks that lets you concentrate and get things done? Is it really anything that matters now that you think of them all equally?

[skip]

Alvin,

You ask is hypnosis likely to help?

Help what specifically?

See I know you say you have ADD, possibly mild, possibly not.

BUT so what. If it is true that you have ADD, whatever that is, how specifically is your behavior affecting your life negatively?

And within that question, I mean a behavior is just a behavior. And it is generally good or bad context dependant. Inability to stay focused may be detremental on one area and very benificial in another.

So consider that ADD (if there really is such a thing and opinions vary), isnt something you have, it is something you do. And you do get to choose what you do.

An excellent book on this is Thom Hartman's "Healing ADD", which you can find on Amazon. You will also find some other excellent ADD books by Thom, if you google his name. Thom takes an entirely different perspective on ADD, and one that IMO is a more correct one.

skip

[Alvin]

Merlin:
>I'm still of the opinion - until convinced otherwise - that ADD has its origins in the operation of the brain - the "physiological" operation of it, that is

Quote: "When the mind expects something to happen,
it will go out of its way to create that expectation as a reality."


Alvin:
Until "later in life", I don't think my mind expected something (ADD symptoms) to happen. I just looked back at what had already happened, trying to understand why. So I don't think ADD has been a self-fulfilling prophesy for me.

Skip:
You ask is hypnosis likely to help?
Help what specifically?

Alvin:
"The first symptoms I want to deal with are distractibility, a general inability to focus, and procrastination." (Bottom part of my first post this thread)

Skip:
BUT so what. If it is true that you have ADD, whatever that is, how specifically is your behavior affecting your life negatively?

And within that question, I mean a behavior is just a behavior. And it is generally good or bad context dependant. Inability to stay focused may be detremental on one area and very benificial in another.

Alvin:
An example:
At work - on a micro level - I want to be able to focus on one task at a time, as I choose. As it is, on a list of, say 10 items on a "to do" list, I'll begin one, skip to another, jump to #4, return to the first, etc. All the while, a conversation in a nearby office captures my attention & I'll stop to listen (loosing focus again on the task at hand). Then, I may remember that I need to call someone, so I may stop what I'm doing to make the call. (Even as I composed this response, I've answered 5 emails - all of which could have waited until I'm finished here. And a few minutes later - because I noticed the time - I checked the closing prices of several commodities in the futures markets, which could have waited. I could add a few more, but I think you get the picture.)

I remember long ago hearing about an executive management strategy for paperwork called OHIO - only handle it once. Sounds good. But an ADD almost cannot resist looking at all incoming mail (as one example of business paperwork), opening & reading what appears to be most important, setting it all aside, returning later to "act" on certain things, reviewing the action before completing the task (beyond just "checking your work for accuracy"), etc. Now I'm not refering to compulsive behavior, but rather impulsive behavior.

On a macro level - I may want to be able to plan and implement a marketing strategy for a new investment product. That will entail gathering research/marketing materials, comparing products, determining my target market (existing clients? seek new clients?), then executing a strategy. For an ADD, it's easy to fail to complete any one of the components, thus never being able to accomplish the larger goal. Indeed, one of the common characteristics you'll read about in many of the books on adult ADD is patients not understanding why they can never finish a work project - they may have several projects in varying stages of incompletion, never "finishing" any of them.

And one non-work example: I just ordered Thom Hartman's Healing ADD (yes, I stopped during composition of this post, read several reviews on Amazon, and ordered the book). But I realize I may, or may not, finish it. I cannot remember how many books I have begun and never finished. Currently, I am midway through one of Ludlum's "Bourne" books, in the early stages of Jim Rogers' "Hot Commodities", and in the final stages of a third book. But I may never finish Ludlum's book (I liked the two movie adaptations, and wanted to read the book prior to theatrical release of the third), it may take me a year to finish Rogers' book (it's not difficult reading and it is interesting [to me] ), and here I am ordering an additional book (with three on my "must read" list, waiting on my bookshelf).

Skip:
So consider that ADD (if there really is such a thing and opinions vary), isnt something you have, it is something you do. And you do get to choose what you do.

Alvin:
An ADD often doesn't feel like he can "choose" what he does - he often acts impulsively, is distracted easily when he'd rather concentrate, does not finish projects he wants to finish, starts too many projects at one time, is often irritable for no apparent reason, etc etc. It all sounds like such an easy behavior to alter - "just don't begin a new project until the current one is finished" "just don't listen to that conversation in the other office". Believe me, it's not that easy. But, perhaps hypnosis (or NLP) can help (perhaps not). That's why I'm here seeking you guys' opinions.

And - thanks for all the posts thus far.

I have a bit more to say, but I promised to take my sister to dinner and a movie. Hopefully I can respond on the NLP thread later.

[Merlin]

Alvin,

"When the mind expects something to happen,
it will go out of its way to create that expectation as a reality."

I refer to your current belief:
>I'm still of the opinion - until convinced otherwise - that ADD has its origins in the operation of the brain - the "physiological" operation of it, that is.
>until convinced otherwise
I do not wish to *convince* you otherwise. The choice is yours.

[Alvin]

After re-reading my last post, let me mention two things:

I'm not looking for sympathy about my "problem", which is very minor in the overall scheme of things (I like Merlin's post elsewhere saying, in effect, she had enough to eat, a comfortable place to sleep, etc. so what else did she need? I wish I could find it to quote her, because these are also my sentiments). Secondly, I'm not trying to impress anyone with how busy I am or how hard I work.

[Alvin]

Merlin:
Are you willing to change, or at least question your beliefs about ADD?

I refer to your current belief:
>I'm still of the opinion - until convinced otherwise - that ADD has its origins in the operation of the brain - the "physiological" operation of it, that is.
>until convinced otherwise
I do not wish to *convince* you otherwise. The choice is yours.

Alvin:
I'm having trouble reconciling your two comments above. I began this thread with the belief that ADD is a physiological issue. It appears you think this is incorrect. Likely, I am either right or wrong - I don't think there are other alternatives. If this is true, why would you not try to convince me? (Other than perhaps thinking it is a waste of time and effort).

[Don]

I can't speak for Merlin, but it seems to me that you've made up your mind as to the nature of ADD. Although it is what we call a "mind read," my guess is that this is not something which you suddenly came up with. Rather, it has been developing over years.

The thing is, our personal paradigms don't develop in a vacuum. Your entire life and beliefs have developed concurrently during this time. No matter what you consciously think, your subconscious will fight like crazy to defend that paradigm. Were someone to blast that one major concept of yours to pieces, the result is that it would also shatter your beliefs about yourself and the world. To deal with that would require some form of therapy, and this forum is not set up to provide therapy.

Now, you also said that you wanted to deal with two issues, enhancing your ability to focus and overcoming procrastination. Both hypnotherapy and NLP can help you to do this.

So respectfully, you are certainly welcome to stay here and argue about the nature of ADD or your can get into some form of therapy and overcome the issues that are facing you. I would just point out that arguing about ADD is a way of avoiding dealing with your issues and procrastinating.

[skip]

Alvin,

You have a number of people who disagree with your belief about the causes of ADD.

And you are right to stay convinced until you are shown otherwise.

The question becomes how to you open yourself to 'be shown otherwise', and still remain true to your belief.

My experience is that people who are certain of their beliefs are confident enough to explore alternatives. Are you sure enough to be unsure?

I am no doctor, and so I couldnt say for sure, but I do know enough about organic causes to know they they tend to be inherent. In other words if there were actually some 'structural' or organic cause, then something like ADD would be across the board.

In reality ADD seems to be context dependant. I am assuming that when making love, you dont stop several times to complete a few emails. I am also assuming that when you set out go the grocery store, you dont generally end up at the movies.

We have masses of teen and preteen aged kids diagnosed with ADD or ADHD, and invarably when you set them down in front of a video game, they are completely absorbed for hours on hours. What happened to the ADD?

I suggested a book for you. One which explains ADD, and gives you exercises to do that will let you learn how to get the most out of your so called 'disorder'. In fact it will teach you how to make it a valuable asset, instead of the liability you now percieve it as.

I am somewhat dismayed to believe that instead of spending 12 to 14 bucks, to either succeed or fail, you prefer to argue with Merlin and others for the belief that says there is essentially nothing you can do.

Which is more important to you Alvin, the 12-14 bucks and the life you imagine you might have, or your belief and the life you say you dont like?

Ill make you this deal. Buy the book, do the drills, and if you arent satisfied, Ill refund your money.

Here is the thing Alvin.

Earlier you wanted to discuss subliminals, and I told you to do some things before we discussed them, because the nature of your questions would change. Do you remember that?

The same is true here.

NLP, or hypnosis, or any real behavioral change protocol, is not a theoretical exercise. The worst thing you can do, the most self limiting thing you can do, is to try and make an experiential process into an intellectual one.

If you seek to understand, then do. The understanding comes from the doing. This is true from eating banannas, making love, to behavioral change. And dont worry about making mistakes, you keep on doing until you get it right. Durn near, anything is better than what you have now, right?

You say procrastination is a problem for you. Do you understand how your desire to know for sure beforehand feeds your procrastination? When will you decide to let your curiosity, to really know, override your need to know first?

skip

[Alvin]

Skip, I'm going to the middle of your reply first:

Skip:
I suggested a book for you. One which explains ADD, and gives you exercises to do that will let you learn how to get the most out of your so called 'disorder'. In fact it will teach you how to make it a valuable asset, instead of the liability you now percieve it as.

I am somewhat dismayed to believe that instead of spending 12 to 14 bucks, to either succeed or fail, you prefer to argue with Merlin and others for the belief that says there is essentially nothing you can do.

Which is more important to you Alvin, the 12-14 bucks and the life you imagine you might have, or your belief and the life you say you dont like?

Alvin:
Dang, Skip - gimme a break. Scroll up to my 1/27 4:59 post:
And one non-work example: I just ordered Thom Hartman's Healing ADD (yes, I stopped during composition of this post, read several reviews on Amazon, and ordered the book). But I realize I may, or may not, finish it. I cannot remember how many books I have begun and never finished. Currently, I am midway through one of Ludlum's "Bourne" books, in the early stages of Jim Rogers' "Hot Commodities", and in the final stages of a third book. But I may never finish Ludlum's book (I liked the two movie adaptations, and wanted to read the book prior to theatrical release of the third), it may take me a year to finish Rogers' book (it's not difficult reading and it is interesting [to me] ), and here I am ordering an additional book (with three on my "must read" list, waiting on my bookshelf).

Skip:
Earlier you wanted to discuss subliminals, and I told you to do some things before we discussed them, because the nature of your questions would change. Do you remember that?

Alvin:
Yes. And as a result of your suggestions:
1. I'll probably order one or both of those books also.
2. I've visited Bandler's site, & may order the Personal Enhancement Series CDs (but I've yet to determine whether or not, as you pointed out, it is the same material as what you have on tape)
3. I have visited Honest Abe's NLP emporium (http://www3.mistral.co.uk/bradburyac/) , but not yet read any book reviews
4. I have resisted - against my impulses - to post on another recent thread where someone is asking about subliminals

Skip:
I am assuming that when making love, you dont stop several times to complete a few emails.

Alvin:
I did once and my wife threatened to kill me.

Remember - a characteristic of ADD is the ability to hyperfocus at times.

Skip:
We have masses of teen and preteen aged kids diagnosed with ADD or ADHD, and invarably when you set them down in front of a video game, they are completely absorbed for hours on hours. What happened to the ADD?

Alvin:
First, see above re hyperfocus. Second, that type of activity (a fast paced videogame with loads of tactile (gamepad), auditory, and visual sensory stimulation) lends itself to something many ADDs are good at - the ADD didn't disappear. Reading a book? That's a different matter. And you can't get through school playing video games, can you?
You have no idea how difficult it is for me to read a book. And I *want* to read. I want to learn from books. I have enjoyable memories of books I've read. In other words, mostly positive emotions associated with reading. But when I begin to read, within 2 pages my mind will begin to wander and I'll be scaning the words without really reading and comprehending anything.

You see, I'm not trying to be argumentative with you, Merlin, EC or anyone else.

My first question is can hypnosis (or NLP, since I've been exposed here to that concept) help. EC (and others) and I digress into a discussion of what ADD actually is. And we disagree, which is OK. But - as I will point out again to Don in a minute - my beliefs are based on a decent amount of research, not just anecdotal observations. EC would probably say much of my research is tainted by "Big Pharma". I ask what his research is based upon. The point of replaying some of the discussion here is that if I feel someone can point out the error of my thinking, I'll want to change my beliefs. The "arguments" (which is not what I think I've done, but I'll accept the characterization) are simply my method of challenging *their* beliefs in an effort to solidify or invalidate my own.

Next, I've identified several presenting symptoms I'd like to deal with. That discussion evolves into whether or not we need to treat the "ISE" (new term for me) or not over on the NLP thread. No complaints - it's all informative and instructive to me - but not what I consider my being argumentative.

Skip:
I am no doctor, and so I couldnt say for sure, but I do know enough about organic causes to know they they tend to be inherent. In other words if there were actually some 'structural' or organic cause, then something like ADD would be across the board.

In reality ADD seems to be context dependant.

Alvin:
I'm no physician either. I'll have to think about the rest of what you said.

Skip:
NLP, or hypnosis, or any real behavioral change protocol, is not a theoretical exercise. The worst thing you can do, the most self limiting thing you can do, is to try and make an experiential process into an intellectual one.

If you seek to understand, then do. The understanding comes from the doing. This is true from eating banannas, making love, to behavioral change. And dont worry about making mistakes, you keep on doing until you get it right. Durn near, anything is better than what you have now, right?

Alvin:
I can't tell you how many subliminal tapes I have in my closet. I tried those with classical music that is supposed to stimulate the brain to learn faster. Some with ocean waves to calm the brain & make it more receptive. Some with a high content of subliminal messages, some with lower content. Some with audible comments reinforced with similar comments subliminally embedded. Some with binaural techniques. I could go on.

My point is that I did try - over and over again - with subliminals - with positive expectations (Psy 101 said they worked experimentally), but with no appreciably noticeable benefits. The book you recommended might be the 200th thing I tried. And, hey, maybe the 200th will be the charm. I'm not afraid or reluctant to try something. I'm just trying to do a little research on the front end (for which the internet is wonderful) to hopefully avoid a lot of false starts.

Don:
So respectfully, you are certainly welcome to stay here and argue about the nature of ADD or your can get into some form of therapy and overcome the issues that are facing you. I would just point out that arguing about ADD is a way of avoiding dealing with your issues and procrastinating.

Alvin:
Respectfully, I hope I've explained above that I am not trying to be argumentative. And, no, research or discussion (arguing) is not my way of dealing with my issues and proscrastinating.

[EC]

Ok Alvin, Forget what I said. I was wrong. ADD may be medical, may be behavioral. It's a crap shoot, but Brain surgery hasn't shown any promise so that leaves:

Continue to search for answers
Medication
Psychotherapy
Hypnosis/NLP
Live with it

Which will you choose

EC

[Merlin]

Alvin,

The bottom line is that it doesn't matter where the problem comes from.
The mind regulates the chemicals of the body.
It's where the decisions come from.
The mind regulates healing.
If there is a defect, only the mind can provide healing.
A doctor can burn, cut-out or poison, but afterwards the mind must come along and heal.
A doctor may align a bone or immobilise the limb, but the mind directs the healing.

Hypnosis/NLP/TLT/etc. just work to get the mind doing its job better.

Your choice

[Tudor]

Reading this thread is leading me to belive that I and all my friends have ADD. Out of focus, distracted, procastinating, shifts attention from subject to subject. And when you finaly is able to concentrate - then that seems to be the proof that you really have ADD.
The way it is descibed in this thread it's seems like everyone have it - sometimes or often. If it is that widespread medical disease everyone in my surronding would be on drugs.
And they are not.

Peter Norling
Ps. I don't meen to diminish your problem Alvin. I just reflect on the overall discussion on this thread.

[voodoochild]

Yes, these "ADD Symptoms" seem to me like everybody has them to some degree...
hyperfocus ?
well if I sit in front of the pc or make music.. i ALWAYS forget that i put a pizza in the oven.. that's why i use an alarm now.. if i read a book.. i most of the time enjoy it but since i don't like lying or sitting somewhere for too long i stop that and do something different after few pages.. however I'm conscious of my decision to do something different because i want to move.. are you too ?
Also.. most of my friends can't even stand listening to beethoven for a minute cause it's too boring .. they can't focus on little dynamics or stuff like that.. either something has a full effect on them or they do something else...
maybe ADD's have just a low tolerance for doing stuff which has little effect on their neurology ?

[Tudor]

"however I'm conscious of my decision to do something different because i want to move.. are you too?"

I'm aware of my conscious decision to do something different, but I'm not directly aware of my unconscious decision to let my consciuos decide to move.
When I do something I always tend to have something more to alternate with (unconscious). That alternate could be flipping the light on and off, listening to the radio (3 min) loking at the TV (5 min) and reading a page from some book, I have several unread books that I started on, or start a new project that will be lying and waiting for the moment of inspiration.
That sort of distracted behavior give my unconscious mind time to sort out all the inputs that I have collected regarding the most important subject at that moment.
If I do something and meet some resistance (can't find the answer or just can't focus) I tend to do something else for a while and the answer comes right up after a while or the focus comes back.

If it was an acceptable way of doing things, then we had to increase the resources in our schools, it's the place where it's most inconvenient to have someone who are demanding special attention.
Perhaps this is a sympton of a non-socialy accepted way of doing things (today) and the most convenient way for the society to handle this (today) is to name it as a disorder and medicate.

[Alvin]

This thread has probably run its course. I sincerely appreciate the thoughts, comments, discussion, and suggestions made by several of you.

EC:
Ok Alvin, Forget what I said. I was wrong. ADD may be medical, may be behavioral

Alvin
EC, may I quote you? "I very much respect your knowledge and opinions. I will continue to do so whether we ever agree [that rot exist or not]. In fact, disagreement = discovery"

EC:
but Brain surgery hasn't shown any promise so that leaves:

Continue to search for answers
Medication
Psychotherapy
Hypnosis/NLP
Live with it

Which will you choose

Alvin:
1. I'll probably always, to some extent, continue to search for answers
2. I intend to try Hypnosis/NLP

Merlin:
The bottom line is that it doesn't matter where the problem comes from.
The mind regulates the chemicals of the body.
It's where the decisions come from.
The mind regulates healing.
If there is a defect, only the mind can provide healing.
A doctor can burn, cut-out or poison, but afterwards the mind must come along and heal.
A doctor may align a bone or immobilise the limb, but the mind directs the healing.

Hypnosis/NLP/TLT/etc. just work to get the mind doing its job better.

Alvin:
I agree with most of this, and the example of mending a broken bone is a good one. One of the things I'm trying to figure out is whether to try to get a hypnotherapist to address ADD as a "global" issue, or whether to just address the individual presenting symptoms. As we discussed in the other thread, I don't want a therapist to paint the house and fail to recognize there are termites present.


Voodoochild, Tudor: ADD (at least my concept of ADD) is indeed an often misdiagnosed illness. Everyone does exhibit the symptoms at one time or another, so don't jump to the conclusion you have it. There is a wealth of information on the web about it - take one of the questionnaires if you want to begin a self-examination process. And don't fail to (scroll up) consider EC's thoughts on the subject, which have great merit (even if he & I disagree on the etiology of ADD).

[Alvin]

That sort of distracted behavior give my unconscious mind time to sort out all the inputs that I have collected regarding the most important subject at that moment.
If I do something and meet some resistance (can't find the answer or just can't focus) I tend to do something else for a while and the answer comes right up after a while or the focus comes back.

Tudor - I was composing my last response before I read this. I don't know much about the workings of the unconscious (yet). If we were just able to do whatever we please most of the time, what you suggest above would be a good model. But, most days, I must go to work and try to accomplish the various tasks of the day - some plesant, some less so. I have things I need to get done whether or not I wish to do them - an unplesant meeting - balancing a checkbook - etc. It would not be fair to any of my clients to fail to return their phone calls if I were avoiding doing so because my unconscious were "telling me" the call may be unplesant, or to wait a few days if they need my assistance today.

[Tudor]

Thank's Alvin for a interesting thread
Just for the records. I know that I don't have ADD. But that don't mean that someone else belive that I or all the other "missfits" - according to todays non-socially accepted behavior - have ADD or any alphabetic disorder.