Alcohol

[Don]

Many years ago, a book that was terrifying in its depiction of descent into drug abuse, Diary of a Drug Fiend, was published in England. It presented a mythical and mystical cure that ended with success. The victim of drug abuse was able to enter a place where drugs were freely available and use them or not. If he used them he could stop and not choose to use them again for months or years. In short, the cure was not avoidance after detoxification, but total personal control and the empowerment of the person.

While I think that many of us would agree that mind-altering chemicals are not necessary, the fact is that such substances are actively sought and used by virtually all mammalian species.

Smoking cessation via hypnotherapy is "sort of" like this introduction of personal control. Instead of turning people into "ex-smokers" who are liable to go back to their smoking behaviors, we help them to return to their "non-smoker" (or "pre-smoker?") stage where they try a cigarette and not feel a need to finish smoking it or continue smoking more. Control and empowerment is the key, not abstinence. Control and empowerment lead to abstinence, but don't require it. A non-smoker who takes a drag on a cigarette does not become an addict, neither does a person who has ended his or her lack of control through hypnotherapy. This, in spite of the proclamation that the cigarette "addiction" is more difficult to break than heroin addiction.

With this as a prologue, I have to wonder why seemingly all methods of dealing with the overuse of alcohol, including most of the methods I've seen described as used by hypnotists, are based on instilling abstinence rather than self-empowerment and personal control.

There is the famous case described of Erickson (who disliked treating alcoholism because he felt the AA did it better--even though their real, and not their mythical track record is a disaster) where he had an alcoholic spend time observing a cactus. The man eventually stopped drinking not because he changed his behavior to one of abstinence, but because he regained understanding (i.e., personal empowerment) and control, returning him to the state of a non-alcoholic--not an ex-alcoholic or "recovering alcoholic."

While "smoking cessation" and "alcohol cessation" are quick ways to describe certain behavioral changes we can help people achieve, is that really what we do? Or do we return personal control and empowerment?

Specifically, should we claim "alcohol cessation" as an accurate description of what we do?

The real issue, IMO, is that alcoholism was initially called a behavior flaw, but over the past 75 years or so, it has been drilled into the psyches of society that it is actually an illness, a disease that like diabetes under standard medical therapies, must be treated for the life of the client. As a results, for people dealing with alcohol issues, each day is a trial that must be taken "one day at a time" and "one drink is too many; 1,000 drinks aren't enough."

So should helping someone into abstinence be a goal? Or should we seek to give clients personal control. Going for personal control is the idea that it is personally empowering and will carry over and improve all other areas of the client's life. Going against it, and for the induction (pun intended) of abstinence is a continual barrage of "information" from medical professionals, big pharma, and people who make a living--and often a very GOOD living--by "treating" alcoholism. This information is a constant tale--virtually "hypnotic" in its repetition--that people are powerless and can't help themselves. Is it not possible, indeed is it not likely, that this hypnotic refrain with its continual avalanche of negative suggestions, might counteract life-affirming, empowering suggestions we help a person to accept?

Are we, as hypnotherapists, actually disempowered by the activity of big pharma, the medical community, and the alcohol treatment well-meaning vultures? Are we, as hypnotherapists, forced into their trance and following their only answer--powerlessness, weakness, lack of self-control, inferiority, possession by a molecule--as opposed to our usual methods that instill personal power, strength, self-control, high quality, and the ability to face any issue without fear or personal terror?

I don't know.

What are your opinions?

[pmdigi]

a "drinking problem". That was over 30 years ago. I like what you say about empowerment, free-choice, free-will, and self-control. As it happens, my liver will not stand for any alcohol since i used to have hepatitus. What worked for me was "cold-turkey" - "delirium-tremens", and total abstinance. I think it is like hypno-therapy where everybody is a unique individual and it just depends on what works for each one. My wife drinks socially, I haven't had a drink in over 30 years.

[Poodle]

I was just discussing some of this with another member here. My father was an alcoholic (came from an alcoholic family for generations). My mother is totally convinced that I could NEVER have helped him as he was "just born that way". Typical Western thinking -- he was "broken".

Dr. Oz was on Oprah about a month or so and stated to the world that a person NEVER LOSES THE DESIRE FOR TOBACCO. If that statement were to be true, I am a very strange human! Let's backtrack here. Quit in about 1980 cold turkey. Around 92 or 93 I had a particularly difficult day at work so walked over to the mailroom to bum a cigarette. Two drags from that thing and I could not get to the bathroom fast enough to "toss my cookies". I would say the "desire" had been more than lost. Don''t like to look at one or smell one.

One client that I had about a year or two ago was a "non-alcoholic" but still needed the sugar that the alcohol provided. Finally, after about four sessions I was able to break that sugar.

Then this week or past weekend there was a psychiatrist on TV that had the unconscious all figured out and could measure brain color activity with certain words that supposedly entered the unconscious. According to him there are a number of words that are automatically entered into the unconscious. I'm wondering why do we bother to use hypnosis.

Sometimes the medical profession can be a person's worst enemy. My Dr. and I got into an argument about nicotine. I said Okay. If it is nicotine why doesn't the gum or the patches work 100% of the time. Chantrix (sp?) is a new name for an old drug that never worked but they have brought it back. My clients will believe their MD over me.

Off topic a bit but...

Pood :)

[Poodle]

and I thought you were about 20 years old! WRONG, huh?

Congratulations on a great life decision even if out of necessity. I'm very happy for you.

Pood :)

[pmdigi]

60 in August. Of course I'm only one of millions of "Baby-Boomers".:)

[Docresults]

Don,

I'm in agreement with you on self-control in regards to external behaviors and have even gone so far as to tell people who smoke who don't really want to quit to do like the American Indians have done for centuries and smoke tobacco without chemicals such as 'American Spirits' and avoid all the medical side effects that normal cigarettes provide.

The best I've been able to do with alcohol was substitute non-alcohol beverages 3(non) to 1 which has lead to abstinence or simply non-alcoholic beer.

To Your Best,
Doc Houston

[Poodle]

you're getting close there!!

[Terry]

Doc, you did what was needed, you replaced one habit with another rather than leave a vacuum, one of the dangers when someone is not well trained.
I am a supporter of AA, and have great respect for those who are members and now offer support to the newcomer. That in no way means that I am agreeing with some of the statements made by AA, I just see such as being based on what was known, and still believed by those who started the movement. On the other hand, to say, "we are powerless against it" is true since the majority of persons who are considered "alcoholics" are indeed powerless without intervention from outside of themselves. This intervention may well come for others who have conquered the habit, and now offer their support to others, or it may come for a therapist, but until such is available they do see themselves as powerless, and therefore are so.
I see no problem in using the same method we so often use for other problems, offering choices based on the decission of the client to choose such enjoyable things as love of family and friends, self respect, keeping that job they enjoy and are so good at etc, while at the same time pointing out that the mind is so powerfull that they do indeed have such a choice. I have yet to find anyone who chose to drink after that, but in fairness I have worked with only a few such cases, and one swallow does not a summer make..:)

[skip]

Don,

First as a general rule of thumb, 'You cant successfully replace something with nothing.'

And second, 'The unconscious is all about choices and will when offered choice, invarably take what it considers the 'best choice'. 'Best choice' being highly qualified, 'best choice' for unconscious' reasons which may make no apparent conscious sense at all.

Simply put, any human behavior, including physical addiction, can be instantly and 'easily' replaced with different behavior, if an alternative that is more attractive to the unconscious is offered.

Given the acceptance of the above as working presuppositions...

AA's success and lack thereof can be easily understood, they are trying to replace drinking with essentially nothing. Well except perhaps with a certain santimonious self satisfaction. But only after making sure the individual accepts the premise that they are totally helpless to help themselves in the face of alcoholism.

And please dont 'ignore' the powerful unconscious message that Erickson delivered with his 'method'. How long can a cactus go without a 'drink' and still thrive?

My best success in this area occurrs when I adopt the above presuppositions and ask "What would you like to do and how would you like to feel instead ..."

I cannot help but wonder what would happen if someone were to use Karen Priors concepts. More time consuming, but I suspect the success rate would easily surpass AA's.

Of course I believe all correctional officers should be thouroughly trained in Karen's methods.

cheers,

skip

[Docresults]

AA's success and lack thereof can be easily understood, they are trying to replace drinking with essentially nothing.

Except coffee, cigarettes and donuts.

[Docresults]

Terry,

You are so right on here. Observer where the client is, what they want and utilize everything to replace (update, upgrade, etc.) identity, beliefs, values and therefore behaviors.

To Your Best,
Doc Houston

[Don]

Except coffee, cigarettes and donuts.

LOL! :)

I see you've attended/survived AA meetings!

[Docresults]

I went to better understand what my client(s) at the time where dealing with.:)

[Simple Guy]

Hi Don,

I'm not "another friend of Bill" (Wilson, the founder of AA) nor a
foe of his, as AA has helped some people, but we don't share
his paradigm of "powerlessness" as an ingredient to behavioral
change for those with serious drinking problems. The mindset
of powerlessness is prevalent in many conventional programs
and therapeutic approaches. It's not one that I've ever
encouraged. I am not been a fan of dabbling in drinking,
once it has been eliminated in problem drinkers, but most
will choose to arrive at a point of abstinence or something
close to it, as a personal choice, after feeling empowered by
successful hypnotically based approaches to behave in their best
interest. Of course, I'm on the side of "personal control and empowerment,"
and will make the task as easy as possible for people as I know
how. For most smokers and drinkers I've worked with, they
come to experience a satisfaction in not dabbling
in substances that no longer carry the enjoyable charge or
emotional associations that they once had. And there isn't a
substitutional dependence on continuance in AA meetings or
"religious" submission. For those that want to go the AA route, they
should be aware that different groups have different dynamics and
vary, demographically, in the composition of members. Some
who consider themselves "friends of Bill," have come to do so,
after visiting different groups to discover the one that is the
best fit for them.

[neomonk]

Except coffee, cigarettes and donuts.

You forgot Jesus...

[Simple Guy]

Hi Neomonk,

I'm not Doc, but it isn't necessarily Jesus. There is a recent book
by a Buddhist AA proponent who asserts that the cosmological
framework of Buddhism (essentially non-"theistic") doesn't conflict
with AA's "higher power" submission requirements.

[Don]

SG, while I certainly agree that the framework of certain schools of Buddhism doesn't conflict with AA's "higher power," I would respectfully suggest that is because the non-theistic Buddhist paradigm can function within many religious paradigms (albeit with a reinterpretation). That is, with the smaller amounts of dogma within those Buddhist paths, fitting within a structure that has much more dogma is not difficult at all.

However, it is clear that the original genius of the founders of AA was in recognizing that not only can people become physiologically addicted to a substance, in this case alcohol, but that some people psychically (in a psychological, not spiritual sense) become linked to certain behavioral patterns in what is called an "addictive personality." They also recognized that the focus of an addictive personality can easily be switched from one behavior pattern to another.

Thus, although the success rate at ending the physiological addiction to alcohol in AA, according to their own research, is no better than going cold turkey by oneself, their success at turning people with an addictive personality from one supposed addiction (alcohol) to another addiction (admittedly a type of ersatz Christianity with the hope that it will change to actual Christianity), is quite high...initially.

But the ultimate failure of AA matches its initial successes. Just as a person with an "addictive personality" can easily switch from an "addiction" to alcohol to ersatz Christianity, that person can also just as easily reverse the process.

Thus, AA becomes an organization dedicated to the maintaining of one addiction (to ersatz Christianity) that is socially acceptable (not to mention often better for physical health) over another. Hence, they define going "off the wagon" as having one drink. They have to because their goal is not to end addiction to alcohol, but to refocus and establish an addiction (to a form of Christianity), and the avoidance of the change of that addiction.

This also explains how one of the defining aspects of AA is the same as is found in other forms of brainwashing: the individual is unimportant and only the state (or in this case, the dogma of the AA) has any validity. To wit: the first of the 12 steps is to acknowledge that you are powerless. This first step puts the AA in direct opposition to virtually all modern forms of therapy, including psychotherapy, all of which are based on empowerment, not disempowerment as is practiced in cults.

Trying to get people to think in terms of empowerment rather than disempowerment is certainly as challenging as getting a smoker to merely consider the possibility that smoking might not be physically addicting.

I realize there are some people here who do work along with AA. And considering all of the propaganda about how great AA is and the resulting predetermined beliefs on the part of clients/potential clients, I can certainly understand beginning to work there, but eventually moving to empowerment rather than disempowerment.

[Simple Guy]

Hi Don,

I don't quarrel with your observation about Buddhism. (I haven't
read the author's book and I know of it from hearing bits and
pieces of a public radio program that the author appeared on.)

There are "addictive personalities," though, i.m.o., many of those
so labeled would more appropriately be "habitual personalities," or
something to that effect. :) There are those ill-served in assuming
themselves to have an addictive personality. I've never encouraged
anyone to take on this self-construct and have successfully worked
with some despite this internalized handicap eagerly fostered
upon them by some groups and less than empowering professionals.
Self-definitions like this one, in the self-help group community,
too often ossify behavior as part-in-parcel of character. Often,
this serves towards the continuance of behavior rather than
serving as a vehicle for change. -- It is not unusual for it to be
intertwined with excuse making. If we were sitting over coffee
(a "habituated" drink for me), it would be fun to kick around the
idea that a significant percentage of those that AA has worked
for are those that may have a personality prone to extremism
that is operant in their former drinking and in their AA fostered
behavioral/belief replacements. I don't see faith as disempowering,
should anyone care to wonder, but do see the applications of faith,
to, at times, be so.

From your post, I'm probably harder on the practice of many psychotherapists,
than you are, as they, de facto, disempower their clients in the
application of their therapies. But, it seems that I'm not as hard
on AA, as perhaps you might be. Yes, there is a personal helplessness,
to an extent, in-common between AA and cults, BUT there isn't
the typical leader elevation that characterizes most cults and
those who'd argue that a non-physically present leader (Jesus)
assumes such a role, wouldn't be making a great case to me.

I've never worked along with AA.

[bluwizz]

I too, once had a drinking Problem.

That was 25+ years ago. I have also worked in AA and outside AA as a clinical therapist in the alcohol and drug rehabilitation field for eleven years.

I like and use the ideas of personal control and empowerment through choices. I haven't worked in the clinical arena for about five years, though I still go into Rehab facilities to work with people new to being non drinkers. My message to them is a bit different than most AA type speakers in that I want them to know that it is up to them to make choices that serve them.

I do not use direct hypnosis at these facilities though I have a guided meditation that I am going to use at least once to see how it works and how the men respond to this.

My whole goal is to help these men see that they do have options and choices and if they make a chioce that does not serve them, then they can change their choice. It is OK to change your mind. This helps them to start seeing personal empowerment. That they can do it, they do have power and choices available to them.

From there I suggest that they start thinking about what they want their life to look like. Take time and think about their choice in the background. Again, working to have them empower themselves by looking at their options for their lives. I want them to determine what an awesome life for them would look like and then determine how to achieve that goal.

Following this process I have no use for alcohol today. It is still a choice for me, yet it is one that I choose not to get involved with. My life is very good and I am continuing to make it even better.

To the AA replacements, I have seen the cigarettes, coffee, donuts and cookies plus spirituality. Now if Jesus is your form of spirituality, good for you, Bill and Dr. Bob did not define any particular form of theology, just that whatever concept of higher power you feel good with. I have seen people with a higher power of a redwood tree. What ever it takes for the refocusing of the energy that was used for the addiction.

My personal push is for the personal empowerment through personal control.

Great comments all of the way through this topic.

[Simple Guy]

Hi Bluwizz,

Congratulations to you. Thanks for your informed post. -- The
perspectives and energy are valuable. :)

[AhavatYisrael]

Well, I'm not terribly informed on the topic but my opinion is this:

Autonomy I think is the one gift we truly have in this life.

'Not being able to' do something, either by design of the individual or the environment, regardless of how its phrased, causes inhibition.

I believe un-learning the need to drink, is far superior than learning how to stop drinking. If a state of inhibition is created, disinhibition can and in some individuals is likely to take place. If one is not inhibited, the idea of "falling off of the wagon" is completely eliminated, and there is no guilt involved.

He or she may drink, but the notion of an addiction is no longer present, and I would suspect because of that better judgement would occur. At that point one or two drinks would indeed suffice.

As for whether one should claim that he aids in "Alcohol Cessation" I think it is really a form of induction. For many, "Empowerment" is abstract, whereas "Alcohol Cessation" is straightforward. If you hint at alcohol cessation when you really have decided to help an individual empower himself, well, in my eyes that is the *client* choosing how to utilize his newfound empowerment with a suggestion regarding how the client may first choose his ability.

Personally, I'm more fond of making a choice that reflects my own morality rather than not doing something because it's "wrong"

- Eliyahu

[bluwizz]

I believe un-learning the need to drink, is far superior than learning how to stop drinking.
- Eliyahu

Very well put. My experience working with people and their addictions (alcohol, drugs, smoking, over eating and the rest) is that if they are requested to STOP doing, that sets up a condition of lack of control or choice. That is too rigid.

This is almost guaranteed to cause the person to relapse into their particular addiction, whereas if they are given the option to use or not then they are in control (empowered).

The idea of thinking through each option of choice before selecting a particular one strengthens their control. They get to see what each options outcome would probably be and with that information they can make a more informed choice that supports their personal goals or outcome.

I have a friend who went to AA for about eight years as an alcoholic. Then he decided that he was sufficiently re-empowered or in control that he has been able to drink a few beers on occasion and once in a great while says that he even gets a bit drunk. For him the addiction is no longer there, he is in control and chooses to drink occasionally. End of problem, he is an empowered used to be alcoholic.

[Terry]

Strange how our experiences differ isn;t it? I have worked with one group only, they used to meet in my church at that time, but of that group, most are content, and happy to remain members of the group and meet every week to support one another, while my work was only required by two persons who found AA was not for them.
Please don;t reffer to what they do as ersatz Christianity Don, it is unkind unfair, and certainly in my experience a false statement. Although I have helped only two members, and spoken to that group on only one occassion, when my wife died, the whole group came to the funeral, and all insisted on hugging me and my family, and showed genuine grief at our loss. So much so that I made a personal visit to their next meeting to express my thanks for a donation they made to the Lung society and for their support of my family in our grief. No true Christian could have done more or shown more grief at anothers loss, so certainly this group is NOT ersatz in any way, but genuine in their feelings for others....Perhaps that is why most have had no need of my services.... A potatoe that was shaped like Christ would of course be an ersatz Christ, but not an ersatz potatoe, so let us not slander a whole group for perhaps a few who failed or the many who lack faith...

[Don]

Respectfully, Terry, I think you misunderstand my use of the term "ersatz." I use it as it was originally intended, meaning "not real" or "a substitute for something else." It actually is a German word meaning "replacement."

In this case, what I mean is that AA is not Christianity, but a substitute for Christianity, much as the "higher power" is a substitute for the Christian savior.

The founders of AA, although they didn't use the term, recognized the idea that some people have addictive personalities and that the addiction to alcohol was more than physical, it was also mental. It was there hope that they could switch the mental aspect of the addiction to alcohol to an addiction to something more socially acceptable. Rather than make it an outright addiction to Christianity, they came up with a substitute or ersatz Christianity. It was their hope that eventually people who became addicted to this religion would switch to full Christianity.

The vehemence with which people who have been members of AA defend their system is matched by devoted Christians who defend their beliefs.

There are many spiritual systems. Christianity does not have an isolated lock on decency and caring for people any more than Judaism, Paganism, Hinduism, Taoism or any other spiritual tradition.

My reference to AA as ersatz Christianity does not mean the members are "fake" Christians and do not care for others. You experienced this for yourself. If I had meant this your comments would be absolutely correct.

No, AA is not fake Christianity, it is very real--it just doesn't call itself Christianity. And that's why calling it ersatz or a substitute form of Christianity is a description and not an insult, a description supported by the experience you had.

[Jack]

A potatoe that was shaped like Christ would of course be an ersatz Christ, but not an ersatz potatoe ...

In 1987 I came across a potato shaped like the Buddha. I still have it, but now it looks like Mother Theresa.

It is proof positive that all religions are the same.

Jack

(Ok, I'll have another dram...)

[skip]

I'll have two of whatever he is having ...

skip

[Simple Guy]

Hi Jack,

Maybe the "eyes" look the same? ;)

[Terry]

Thank you for the expansion of your thinking Don. Yes I do understand the proper meaning of ersatz, but your explanation offers it to others who read your post as dismissive of AA members as genuine. AA cannot support one religion as you know, they deal with anyone be they Christian Jewish, Muslim, or agnostic, so a dwelling on Christian thinking would be a put down for those of differing faith, or no faith at all.
We who practise Hypnosis often replace a belief in "A Higher Power" with our own power as demonstated to a client as you well know of course, and in that case become that person's higher power and see no problem in it...

[Terry]

OK, if the dram is being passed arround, I also will have a couple, in fact, MY TREAT, hows that?..:D

[Don]

Terry, I happen to know some absolutely wonderful and very genuine people who are members of AA. I am absolutely NOT dismissive in any way of the quality of some of these wonderful, dedicated people.

I fully have a belief in a Higher Power, although I don't follow the orthodox Christian (and AA) concept that we are powerless to change without the help of that Power. In my practice one of my goals is to empower each individual, and telling them they are powerless would contradict that.

I guess I'm also a follower of the old philosophy that the gods (later changed to "God") help those who help themselves, as well as the first line of the preamble to the U.S. Constitution, a document that does not say our country is founded by a Higher Power, but rather by "We the people."

[Candida]

Maybe the "eyes" look the same? ;)
Simple Guy -- :rofl: :p


We can do no great things, only small things with great love.

[Poodle]

How absolutely WONDERFUL to have you back. You have been missed my friend. (I don't want any of what ya'll are drinking although I do have a nice bottle of Cabernet Sauvignon that needs to be opened ;) )

Pood

[Simple Guy]

Thanks, Candida, nice that the post did that. I'm pretty sure
other people have told you that your name (presuming it isn't
only a board name) reminds them of the song with the lyrics:
"Oh my Candida..." Nice to make your acquaintance. :)

[Henrik]

How absolutely WONDERFUL to have you back. You have been missed my friend. (I don't want any of what ya'll are drinking although I do have a nice bottle of Cabernet Sauvignon that needs to be opened ;) )

Pood

Yes, very good to have you back again Terry. I see Jack is visiting more often again as well. Also very good.

Henrik
:)

[Connie]

Ditto on the nice to see Terry and Jack posting! :)

[Terry]

I think it likely that I will not be avaiable as often in future. At least I hope this will be the case, since it will mean that my clinic is up and active, and the people of Calgary are able to get the extra help that might make all the difference between recovery from Cancer, and surrendering to it.
My thanks to pood who sent me some important information I can use, and my relief that I have already got three more volunteers to help at the clinic which will initially be a virtual one run from my condo.
I now have three trained Physiotherapists, one skilled practitioner of Reiki, and of course myself to apply hypnotherapy, a fantastic start that happened so easily when I put out the word of what I intended to do. Never doubt, there are wonderfull people all around us, including the young that some are so quick to judge harshly....

[Jack]

Hi Jack,

Maybe the "eyes" look the same? ;)

So bad it's good:)

Jack

[Jack]

I would like to wish you every success with your cancer clinic and say how pleased I am that you are back posting regularly for now, and also that you still have the energy to undertake this project. I would recommend a single malt to help, but I fear it might hinder, and I don't think you need it!

If you haven't done so already take a look at the work of Dr Carl Simonton
in the US.There is nothing there that you don't already know but what they have done is systemise the approach and in doing so have pointed the way to further creative methodology that might be useful in some small way.

Jack

[Poodle]

Would you do us a big favor please? When you are going to be off line for an extended period of time, please post a little note in "our" section so the remainder of us don't worry about you?

You are very special to us and, by the way -- you are more than welcome.

Hugs~Pood

[Terry]

Thanks for the lead Jack, at this time all is grist to my mill. At present I am reading a rather facinating book, "A course in miracles" donated by my grandson and distributed by the Foundation for Inner Peace, but I have already checked out Carl Simonton and will be ordering some of his stuff also since one can never learn too much.

[Simple Guy]

Hi Terry,

I've read two books by Simonton. I'll second Jack's lead. I've only
been read selections from "A Course In Miracles," haven't gotten
the book or course yet, though.

[Terry]

Since I disposed of my library when we downsized to move into the condo, I will now be starting a new and more selective one, and will certainly start off with some of Simonton's works. The "MIracle" book is the size of a dictionary, so will take time reading it, but I will comment on it perhaps from time to time, since such would be my understanding of intent, and not quotes for the book, which I would not be willing to quote, since that might deny the author a sale.