Needs and motivations of the subconscious

[aklimatizer]

Hi everyone, I did a search for this topic before posting, but didn't see anything relevant to my question, so I'm posting this. My first time on this site, so I apologize, in advance, if this is somewhere I'm not aware of.

I recently read a book on self hypnosis by Dr Charles Henderson, and began to experiment with self hypnosis myself. I have had some good results I would say, and have been wanting to get more involved with it. One thing, however, which I am confused about are the needs and motivations of the subconscious. Dr Henderson briefly touched upon these in his book, but never fully explained them.

Specifically, what I would be interested in learning is how suggestion should be "fine tuned" to work with the needs and motivations of the subconscious. From what I understand, the needs of the subconscious are protection, preservation, and procreation. While the motivations of the subconscious are identity, security, and stimulation.

I'm working with suggestion, formulating my own, in order to try to work with some negative beliefs I have, and I'm curious if there is a certain way I should be "tweaking" suggestions so they either work more efficiently or don't come against as much or any resistance from my subconscious.

I hope I'm stating this clearly enough, I fear I may not be, but I hope you get the general idea of why I'm creating this post. Any replies that will either help me understand the subject more clearly or correct my misperceptions if I have any would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.

[skip]

I dont know how to say this without being too hard on Mr. Henderson. So I'll put it this way.

If self protection or preservation were a need of the unconscious there would be no obesity, drug abuse, alcoholism, or any other self destructive habits. If procreation were a need, I suspect there would be no homosexuality.

I suspect Mr Henderson was trying to explain a very complex situation simplistically, and in so doing, erred; to the extent of complete innacuracy.

For any given behavior in any given context there are any number of values, beliefs, and desires; that combine to drive the behavior.

It is sometimes useful to decipher what those are in order to manipulate, or modify the behavior, such as increase it or tone it down.

But if you wish to change the behavior, you dont need to decipher what drives it, just find another behavior that is desirable or at very least satisfactory, in the context, and substitute it.

That way you dont have to worry about the motivation behind the behavior those same motivations triggered by the situation will result in a new behavior that enhances your performance.

I hope that helped.

cheers,

skip

[aklimatizer]

Hi Skip,

Thanks for your reply. I'm a little confused now, as what I have understood about the subconscious is that it will "protect" one's self, albeit sometimes through consciously understood destructive behaviors.

A hypothetical example might be someone who wants to lose weight. Consciously they want to lose weight, but subconsciously they remember that they felt so uncomfortable when the opposite sex made them feel like a piece of meat. In this case, when they try to lose weight, they will partake in behaviors that they consciously regard as destructive, like binge eating for example, but those same behaviors are the subconscious' way of protecting them.

From what I understand you to be saying, in the hypothetical situation above, the needs, desires, etc. of the subconscious causing the person to binge eat are what drives them to not lose weight.....however, is it not still a fundamental need of the subconscious to protect the person? Underlying all the specific reasons for the subconscious causing the behaviors it does, it seems there is a need to protect.

So, in regards to your post above, stating that there are no absolute needs of the subconscious, could you please help me understand how this hypothetical situation would be explained?

Also, when you state that you don't need to discipher what causes a behavior, I'm curious to know why you would not, since the behavior in question may simply be a symptom of a deeper issue? Thus, if you change the behavior, would not a new symptom just surface if you don't take care of the fundamental cause?

Thank you!

[Poodle]

I'll not be as kind as Skip and suggest that you get your nose out of a psychological b.s. book and get your mind and body into a good hypnosis/hypnotherapy training. And, as far as negative and limiting beliefs go, you really need to attend a great NLP training so you will know how to effectively and efficiently eliminate them.

You are writing out of the paradigm of Western medicine. We will not assist you in any way in writing scripts or ideas to play with your mind or any other.

Read Merlin's FAQ please.


Pood :)

[aklimatizer]

Hi Poodle,

I appreciate your reply. While I can see your point of view, I do not understand why you call the information by Dr Henderson "psychological b.s.". I've delved a little bit into NLP in the past, and I understand a little bit about it.

I read Merlin's FAQ page, and I find it ironic that, she too, deals with the instance of symptoms verses causes or real issues - which I had mentioned in my last post, specifically in the hypothetical situation I inserted into the post.

So, after reading Merlin's FAQ and your comments, my question is - do you have any sources that will help to backup your claims that books such as Dr Henderson's do not work? I find it curious, because through the use of autoquestioning (which is one of the topics of Dr Henderson's book), I've been able to discover real issues from apparent destructive behaviors, thereby eliminating the need for a "skilled hypnotherapist" as Merlin states in her FAQ.

And in general, I was not asking for a script to "play with my mind", as you call it. I am simply asking a general question about the motivations and needs of the subconscious.

Thank you.

[Poodle]

read edited post above.

[Connie]

My subsconscious says: don't offer training freebies to this one. As has so often been pointed out, this is not a forum for teaching.

[skip]

Akli...,

I will respond to this in detail, but please understand we are comming at a subject from two different paradigms.

Western psychology is built around the medical model, which is generally, "If symptoms exist, something is 'broken' and if you fix the 'broken' thing the symptoms will dissapear." And further that if you didnt get the 'root cause', symptoms will persist, or other complications will arise. This model works great with broken limbs, and many other issues, but it isnt accurate, in an all encoumpassing sense"

I am comming from a model where no one is 'broken'. That is because the medium I work with (the mind) is a learning machine. You dont ever unlearn things. You learn new things. You can learn new things, which supplant old things, but what you know today, you will still know tomorrow, despite what you have learned in the interviening period.

And the amazing thing is that the old stuff never gets in the way of the new stuff. The only time you actually have problems, is when the old stuff isnt working anymore, in the contexts it is used, and new stuff, in that context, hasnt yet been learned.

Now maybe when you were little you were scared of monsters under your bed. And they were certainly real to you then, and affected your behavior. But (I assume) they dont anymore. Tell me, "Did someone go back and fix your 'wrong thinking', or did you simply learn something new?" I suspect that you learned something new, and you now call it growing up, or some such. The "mosnters under the bed" business is still there, and could be recalled "re-experienced" vividly, if you cared to, but it doesnt affect your life now.

Effectively you might consider the notion, "What you did yesterday, (belief, values, behaviors) does not dictate what you do tomorrow. You can always change your mind."


A hypothetical example might be someone who wants to lose weight. Consciously they want to lose weight, but subconsciously they remember that they felt so uncomfortable when the opposite sex made them feel like a piece of meat. In this case, when they try to lose weight, they will partake in behaviors that they consciously regard as destructive, like binge eating for example, but those same behaviors are the subconscious' way of protecting them.

Yes I can see that the unonscious is 'protecting' them by covering them in a layer of undesirability, thereby endangering them with diabtes, high cholesterol, liver and kidney failure, joint problems, not to mention the misery of not liking themselves, because of how they look, and their helplessness to do anything about it.

That my friend is not protection. You are confusing 'what worked' with 'protection'. If the unconscious discovers something that 'works', it will try it over and over again, even in the face of evidence that it no longer 'works'. Make careful note here, the unonscious is ignoring the current results, in favor of what 'worked' long ago, often only once.

But lets use your example. If you were to get at the 'root cause', and fix it. Now they arent threatened by the attention of the opposite sex. In your paradigm nothing further is needed, the weight problem will go away. Right?

Or will they still be overweight and miserable, while you assure them they are 'cured', because they are now comfortable with the attentions of the opposite sex?

They have an entire lifestyle devoted to maintaining 'obesity' that you havent affected at all.

I can imagine your client now. "I came for weight loss and you are coaching me on dating. WTF?"


Now what you call the 'root cause', I would call a secodary issue. The client 'presents' with a weight problem. If, as we go along, we find this 'secondary issue/root cause' to be a hinderence in delivering the desired behavior, I can teach them to respond differently to 'attentions of the opposite sex'.

But it wont be the first thing I turn my attention to, and in 99 out of 100 cases, it wont be a factor in a successful outcome at all.

My suspicion is that most of this type stuff gets cleared up without the client or the therapast ever realizing it. The client is, after all, learning new skills anyway, and we are fantastic learning machines. So as they are taking on new beliefs, values, behaviors, and concepts, to support what they want, they are making unconscious changes that permeate their entire being.

In short, I'll deal with it if it comes up, but if it doesnt I wont go looking for it. It is actually none of my business, and, IMO, unethical for me to go probing for what I fantasize must be there, and hallucinate will certainly affect therapy, when, in reality, it is unlikely to be the case.

See Akli... yours is a paradigm that works with broken bones, but doesnt fit well with a learning machine.

From what I understand you to be saying, in the hypothetical situation above, the needs, desires, etc. of the subconscious causing the person to binge eat are what drives them to not lose weight.....however, is it not still a fundamental need of the subconscious to protect the person? Underlying all the specific reasons for the subconscious causing the behaviors it does, it seems there is a need to protect.

Go look at an alcoholic passed out in the park, and explain to me how, specifically, the unconscious is protecting them?

But in specific answer to your question I find that most often the client has long ago resolved their immature behaviors with regards to the opposite sex, and they are just running an old 'pattern'.

The unconscious will do that. It is no longer about their insecurities with the opposite sex, it is an entire learned lifestyle.

So, in regards to your post above, stating that there are no absolute needs of the subconscious, could you please help me understand how this hypothetical situation would be explained?

First I'll ask you the question, "How do you know the unconscious cares about the result? And if it did, how do you explain consciously undesirable or self destructive behavior." You cant have it both ways. In the problem situation you are saying the unconscious doesnt care that the results are destructive, but in the solution situation you say it does care. In the real world, you are going to have to choose, it either does care or it doesnt.

Also, when you state that you don't need to discipher what causes a behavior, I'm curious to know why you would not, since the behavior in question may simply be a symptom of a deeper issue? Thus, if you change the behavior, would not a new symptom just surface if you don't take care of the fundamental cause?

What if I had no need to 'explain' it? What if I simply ask the person, "What would you like to do instead ...?" And then using the persons answer, and the behavioral skills they already posess in other contexts, taught them new unconscious behavioral responses to the drives and motivations that used to generate the undesirable behavior, to generate the new desirable behavior. In other works if the response to those old 'drives' were desirable behavior instead of undesirable behavior, would it be important to eliminate or even understand the 'origin'?

Now Akli..., I want to warn you ...

This paradigm is dangerous if you are a student in a traditional psychology enviornment.

It is a paradigm of utmost importance if you want to help clients in the real world. Otherwise you will condemn them to endless delving into their past, with more often than not, little result. "Ive been in therapy for 5 years." is an indictment, not a success story.

If you are currently a psychology student, I would advise you to put this away in a corner of your mind and ignore it completely, until you have graduated and passed all your boards etc.

Then pull it out, brush it off, learn it thoroughly, and really help your clients.

But it will cause you endless problems as a student, because it requires your instructors to change their paradigm. They will resolve the delima by delivering you failing grades.

I hope what I have said will be of some benifit.

I wish you well,

skip

[Merlin]

Please keep in mind, the sub-conscious is able to mislead, withhold information, or even lie if it feels that it is in its best interest to do so.
What does your method offer for these situations?